The Richest Countries in 2023 • Hacker News Board

Re: The Richest Countries in 2023

#31

Post by tomthe » Fri, Dec 22, 2023, 1:46 PM UTC

lambda_garden wrote: post #20

amadeuspagel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More of the total work that people have to do, including chores, is in the US work that people pay for and are paid for, rather then doing it for themselves.

Wow that's an interesting thought. If every did their neighbor's laundry (say) and charged a fee, then everyone would be doing the same amount of laundry and have the same amount of money, yet GDP would rise?

Yes, there is also this nice story to illustrate this:

Two economists are walking in a forest when they come across a pile of shit.

The first economist says to the other “I’ll pay you $100 to eat that pile of shit.” The second economist takes the $100 and eats the pile of shit.

They continue walking until they come across a second pile of shit. The second economist turns to the first and says “I’ll pay you $100 to eat that pile of shit.” The first economist takes the $100 and eats a pile of shit.

Walking a little more, the first economist looks at the second and says, "You know, I gave you $100 to eat shit, then you gave me back the same $100 to eat shit. I can't help but feel like we both just ate shit for nothing."

"That's not true", responded the second economist. "We increased the GDP by $200!"

copied from: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37395566 (but they probably also copied it from somewhere)

Re: The Richest Countries in 2023

#32

Post by KoftaBob » Fri, Dec 22, 2023, 1:50 PM UTC

j7ake wrote: post #29

kmlx wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I feel just as "rich" i think it really depends on the lifestyle you're accustomed to having.

If this lifestyle involves having two kids or more, then Germany wins hands down

But if the lifestyle involves a certain size home, certain cars, vacations, etc then it's much harder to attain with Germany's average income vs the US.

Re: The Richest Countries in 2023

#33

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 22, 2023, 1:51 PM UTC

nus07 wrote: post #27

killdisk wrote: post #6

As an American living in Berlin for 2 years while working as a software dev, this article very much confirms my experience. The move started with a bit of sticker shock at having my income effectively cut in half - lower salaries and higher taxes - but I feel just as "rich". Germany has very strong worker protection laws, I feel secure in my job, the time off minimum STARTS at 28 days a year, + holidays + effectively…

Ehh we here in US got better things to do with taxes like spending it to build another fighter jet so we can send it to the Middle East in the name of Freedom . I am told you guys in Western Europe enjoy your stability because of the “freedom” we bring for all of you at the cost of our own healthcare , worker protections and social safety net. Look we are martyrs. *my brother in law lives in Germany making less than…

[deleted]

Re: The Richest Countries in 2023

#34

Post by tokai » Fri, Dec 22, 2023, 1:51 PM UTC

0xDEF wrote: post #25

killdisk wrote: post #6

As an American living in Berlin for 2 years while working as a software dev, this article very much confirms my experience. The move started with a bit of sticker shock at having my income effectively cut in half - lower salaries and higher taxes - but I feel just as "rich". Germany has very strong worker protection laws, I feel secure in my job, the time off minimum STARTS at 28 days a year, + holidays + effectively…

It is worth pointing out that we Northern Europeans can only afford this because we have a small group of highly competitive and wealth generating companies and sectors. We would be in a dire situation here in Denmark without Novo Nordisk. 1-2 years ago it was Maersk, DSV etc. that held up our economy because freight prices were high.

Not true. Denmark has a very diverse economy.

Re: The Richest Countries in 2023

#35

Post by munch117 » Fri, Dec 22, 2023, 1:55 PM UTC

lambda_garden wrote: post #20

amadeuspagel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More of the total work that people have to do, including chores, is in the US work that people pay for and are paid for, rather then doing it for themselves.

Wow that's an interesting thought. If every did their neighbor's laundry (say) and charged a fee, then everyone would be doing the same amount of laundry and have the same amount of money, yet GDP would rise?

Yes, GDP is an unreliable measure for value created.

It's not just that some work isn't counted. It's also that work is counted based on monetary remuneration, even if it's contribution to the general welfare is very low or negative.

Re: The Richest Countries in 2023

#36

Post by sgt101 » Fri, Dec 22, 2023, 1:55 PM UTC

This is where aggregates are really tricky. I think that they are using means at the average - this is a serious issue.

The thing is WHO is this money for? If the long tail of the population are subsisting on $20k a year while the top 1% are living large on $1M a year then things are going to feel very hard for the "average" Joe/Joanne.

Re: The Richest Countries in 2023

#37

Post by actionfromafar » Fri, Dec 22, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

nus07 wrote: post #27

killdisk wrote: post #6

As an American living in Berlin for 2 years while working as a software dev, this article very much confirms my experience. The move started with a bit of sticker shock at having my income effectively cut in half - lower salaries and higher taxes - but I feel just as "rich". Germany has very strong worker protection laws, I feel secure in my job, the time off minimum STARTS at 28 days a year, + holidays + effectively…

Ehh we here in US got better things to do with taxes like spending it to build another fighter jet so we can send it to the Middle East in the name of Freedom . I am told you guys in Western Europe enjoy your stability because of the “freedom” we bring for all of you at the cost of our own healthcare , worker protections and social safety net. Look we are martyrs. *my brother in law lives in Germany making less than…

Sure, but replace jets with “health care middlemen” and you get the real spending.

Re: The Richest Countries in 2023

#38

Post by refurb » Fri, Dec 22, 2023, 1:58 PM UTC

killdisk wrote: post #6

As an American living in Berlin for 2 years while working as a software dev, this article very much confirms my experience. The move started with a bit of sticker shock at having my income effectively cut in half - lower salaries and higher taxes - but I feel just as "rich". Germany has very strong worker protection laws, I feel secure in my job, the time off minimum STARTS at 28 days a year, + holidays + effectively…

I guess it depends on what you’re looking for because I had the opposite experience.

I went from carefully budgeting each month, thinking about buying a house maybe in a decade (or two). And put away a few hundred for retirement each month. Job opportunities were ok, but options limited.

Then I went to the US and got a 100% pay bump. And pay has only increased after that. I bought a house 2 years after arriving in the US. I was putting away 10x in savings. Suddenly retiring before I was 65 was an option.

I went from being “ok” to a state where I didn’t have to worry if I had a major expensive. The mental load went away. I could think about retiring early. Not to mention the career opportunities. I had multiple employers and cities I could work in. Sure, healthcare is a hassle, but I didn’t have to be a 1 year waitlist for a primary physician.

Overall moving to the US was a huge life upgrade for me.

Re: The Richest Countries in 2023

#39

Post by jakub_g » Fri, Dec 22, 2023, 1:59 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #23

jacek wrote: post #9

My personal opinion here. For a long time GDP and standard of living/well-being of a society have been correlated that people started to think that these are the same. These two are becoming more and more detached each year with progressing inequality. To the point that GDP now tells us very little about a country. For example Bermuda. The high GDP per capita incomes is fueled by offshore financial services, but that…

GDP being a weak and misleading metric has been known to be a factor from many decades. It's just an easy and lazy measurement most can (or think they) understand.

Apart from money not being everything, it's also much "averages vs medians" (vs distributions) again.

People love using averages because they're a single number, and easy to calculate.

Medians are more difficult to calc, and distributions and percentiles are something most people are never taught, and it's no longer a single number which is easy to (artificially) compare.

Re: The Richest Countries in 2023

#40

Post by FirmwareBurner » Fri, Dec 22, 2023, 1:59 PM UTC

killdisk wrote: post #6

As an American living in Berlin for 2 years while working as a software dev, this article very much confirms my experience. The move started with a bit of sticker shock at having my income effectively cut in half - lower salaries and higher taxes - but I feel just as "rich". Germany has very strong worker protection laws, I feel secure in my job, the time off minimum STARTS at 28 days a year, + holidays + effectively…

>As an American living in Berlin for 2 years [...] but I feel just as "rich"

You probably lucked out on landing a good job and housing, otherwise it's difficult to feel even remotely rich in Berlin as you search for housing if you're moving in right now.

Landing a good job right now is also insanely difficult if you don't have the in-demand skills & experience, a stellar resume, and willing to do lengthy take home tests or leetcode. It's highly competitive right now.

Your experience is more like survivorship bias.