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Tech's DEI backlash is here

techcrunch.com

111–120 of 221 posts

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#111
post #42

One side-effect of DEI is that I take HR even less seriously than ever. Any HR-hosted event is most likely a hard pass for me. Even if it's something I am slightly interested in (say, company event to celebrate Diwali because we do have Indian employees, and despite not being Indian, I have some tangential interest in it partly because I respect and like many of my coworkers and partly just out of curiosity), if it's…

It's sort of weird, I (used to) work at a very large company and saw pretty much none of this, at all, over last 3 years. Even people ranting anonymously in Blind would admit we had ~nothing extreme like this. Nothing even close. Yet we were famous for it. For them, the issue was feeling they couldn't share their politic opinions without derision because their coworkers were uniformly liberal. If you tweeted this and…

> never even heard of the Genderbread Cookie.

https://www.samkillermann.com/work/

You can find it on that ^^ list, along with other projects by the same person.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#112
post #72

This article submission has already been flagged. :( Seems like it's a valid thing to discuss though, as it affects a lot of people.

This seems to be happening more often on HN. I wish there were a way to vouch for stories that get flagged, like how we can for comments. As it stands, a small group of passionate flaggers can shut down a lot of articles on a topic they want to block.

> I wish there were a way to vouch for stories that get flagged, like how we can for comments.

It's a bit manual, but emailing "hn@ycombinator.com" to ask about unflagging a particular submission can work. :)

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#113
post #20
post #11

Oof. I bet people are reticent to post any comments here. That's good - it's hard to post about this topic in a way that doesn't detract from the overall tone and quality of HN. No one wants to post some James Damore screed decrying the longhouse, nor some 2010s style social justice screed. No matter which side you argue, you'll get a 1,000 very uninteresting comments from uncurious ideologues doing their duty to def…

IMO some topics can't be meaningfully discussed between a group of largely anonymous people, especially when the existence of... hostile interlocutors is always present. There are people I know offline who I'd avoid discussing these topics with, never mind millions of people I've never met, who's body language I can't see, and who's sincerity I can't identify. As you said, it's tiring, and there are other things to t…

This seems more like a topic that can only be discussed anonymously, lest someone take offense and start a pressure campaign against one's employer.

> hostile interlocutors

A strong noise filter is indeed required.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#114
post #109

I support merit based DEI. What worries me is that for "diversity" candidates, the hiring bar is usually set low (at least in my company). And nobody is brave enough to talk about the consequences of these decisions. Have lost lucrative projects due to poor delivery, team mates having to do additional work to cover for the lapses, overall team performance pulled down leading to variable compensation impact, etc. One…

> merit based DEI

what even does this mean

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#115
post #11

Oof. I bet people are reticent to post any comments here. That's good - it's hard to post about this topic in a way that doesn't detract from the overall tone and quality of HN. No one wants to post some James Damore screed decrying the longhouse, nor some 2010s style social justice screed. No matter which side you argue, you'll get a 1,000 very uninteresting comments from uncurious ideologues doing their duty to def…

> No one wants to post some James Damore screed decrying the longhouse . . . . Did you read what he actually wrote, instead of just the whines of Googlers and the journalists who amplified them? I ignored the whole thing for a long time, but when I finally read it word for word out of curiosity well after the shitstorm, I thought it was one of the most reasonable and blatantly obvious things I had ever read.

Clearly, it made a number of women at the company very uncomfortable. So maybe you’re missing something.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one wants to post some James Damore screed decrying the longhouse . . . . Did you read what he actually wrote, instead of just the whines of Googlers and the journalists who amplified them? I ignored the whole thing for a long time, but when I finally read it word for word out of curiosity well after the shitstorm, I thought it was one of the most reasonable and blatantly obvious things I had ever read.

Clearly, it made a number of women at the company very uncomfortable. So maybe you’re missing something.

Literally anything can make "a number" of people claim to be uncomfortable, especially when it involves an examination of discrimination that favors them. I missed nothing, and I award you an F for your non-rebuttal "rebuttal" of what Damore wrote.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one wants to post some James Damore screed decrying the longhouse . . . . Did you read what he actually wrote, instead of just the whines of Googlers and the journalists who amplified them? I ignored the whole thing for a long time, but when I finally read it word for word out of curiosity well after the shitstorm, I thought it was one of the most reasonable and blatantly obvious things I had ever read.

Clearly, it made a number of women at the company very uncomfortable. So maybe you’re missing something.

Losing your privilege feels like oppression

In this case, it's explicit privilege in hiring, promotions, and legal mandates for reporting in layoffs.

Seems like he's pushing for equality

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#118

My $0.02 DEI is good in principle but poorly executed. Diversity is good for business. You want people from different backgrounds and different ways of thinking. But we have had a problem in tech of hiring only people like we already have, whether it be age, attitude, or race. At the same time, the DEI initiatives went too far. I am ok with racial targets that try to bring the company numbers closer to the local geog…

> Diversity is good for business. It's not clear to me that it is either good or bad for business. Why is this stated as a matter of fact. And please spare me links to studies funded by special interest groups. > You want people from different backgrounds and different ways of thinking. Define "different backgrounds". Why is only reduced to the color of someone's skin or sex? Why not people who grow up as Atheist, Ch…

> It's not clear to me that it is either good or bad for business. Why is this stated as a matter of fact. And please spare me links to studies funded by special interest groups.

Not the poster and going to try to read the last sentence with positive intent.

You can find the benefits in most industries where you are providing a product to be used by the general public. The design of products come from the vantage of who is designing them. Historically this has been products designed by men and made for men. From male crash test dummies, to PPE, and even medical treatments. The designers were not looking to exclude women in these cases, everyone simply has blind spots or things that they don't consider, leading to worse/less safe products.

Going back to tech. How many demographic text boxes are designed by people who are not accustomed to long surnames? Security/Admin controls by someone who has never been in an abusive relationship? UX that is unusable by anyone with a disability, or simply not accustomed to technology.

If you don't care about these groups using your product effectively, then it's likely fine for business. Heck, many companies don't see a problem and conclude that their customers are "wrong" or "dumb" when features are left unused or bugs are reported.

> Define "different backgrounds". Why is only reduced to the color of someone's skin or sex? Why not people who grow up as Atheist, Christian, Buddhist, etc? Or those who grew up as a single child? Or played team sports? Don't all these things play a role in shaping who someone is?

Everyone is different but I statistically have more in common with a white male 21-35 than any other group (even if he played team sports). Could a particular person be a deeply different 25 year old white man born in Thailand, deeply poor, and raised Jewish? I suppose, but we're all doing heuristics out there. So we use the heuristics that are both good proxies to determine "diversity of thoughts and experiences" and are easy to know.

We all know that a leetcode question, or a system design interview, or a take home project isn't a perfect show of someone's technical skills, why should heuristics around diversity be any different?

> Some people just like to worth with really intelligent, hard working people and don't care anything else about the person. And some people want to work with people like themselves. I probably fall into the former, but who am I to dictate what model creates the most success for a business (assuming that's the goal)

It's easy to say that in the abstract, hard to actually live that. You ask most people on the street and few will say they judge people beyond their character/actions/intelligence/whatever. But we know that isn't true, people aren't that logical and detached.

It also ignores what intelligent/hardworking means to each of us. Let's even ignore gender/race. I know many engineers that view front end code as "beneath them" and "not real software engineering". Are they really going to view me as a hardworking, intelligent engineer if that's what I'm doing?

Heck, am I a hard working, intelligent engineer if I focus some of my time on DEI initiatives? What if I can't invert a B-tree? What if I still got hired, what would you think of me?

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Diversity is good for business. It's not clear to me that it is either good or bad for business. Why is this stated as a matter of fact. And please spare me links to studies funded by special interest groups. > You want people from different backgrounds and different ways of thinking. Define "different backgrounds". Why is only reduced to the color of someone's skin or sex? Why not people who grow up as Atheist, Ch…

> It's not clear to me that it is either good or bad for business. Why is this stated as a matter of fact. And please spare me links to studies funded by special interest groups. Not the poster and going to try to read the last sentence with positive intent. You can find the benefits in most industries where you are providing a product to be used by the general public. The design of products come from the vantage of…

> So we use the heuristics that are both good proxies to determine "diversity of thoughts and experiences" and are easy to know.

Who is "we"? I personally define "different background" very similarly to your parent poster, and anecdotally 90% of all people I chatted on the topic (several dozen) do so as well.

So don't act like you represent some bigger group. I'd like to see exhaustive and irrefutable numerical proof if you choose to double down on this flawed assertion.

So if "we" can't be bothered to use very common-sensical criteria on what actually being "diverse" means then the DEI initiatives will keep being hijacked by opportunistic individuals (as it currently seems to be the case).

So let's stop normalizing a thought process that shouldn't even be called that. Would be a good start.

> It's easy to say that in the abstract, hard to actually live that.

It's extremely easy in tech in fact. After being an interviewer and an interviewee for 22 years, I have seen this shake out dozens of times: a round of interviews establishes with 80-90% certainty that (a) the candidate is capable and (b) matches the company's culture.

Not sure why you and others are constantly trying to shift goal posts to other areas when the original article clearly qualifies its statement with the word "tech".

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one wants to post some James Damore screed decrying the longhouse . . . . Did you read what he actually wrote, instead of just the whines of Googlers and the journalists who amplified them? I ignored the whole thing for a long time, but when I finally read it word for word out of curiosity well after the shitstorm, I thought it was one of the most reasonable and blatantly obvious things I had ever read.

Clearly, it made a number of women at the company very uncomfortable. So maybe you’re missing something.

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