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Tech's DEI backlash is here

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Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#61

Post by justinclift »

MyShawdowySelf wrote: post #51
lopkeny12ko wrote: post #10

DEI as a philosophy is fundamentally flawed. Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace, yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist? I raised this with colleagues on a few separate ocassions and was promptly shunned, yet they didn't have an answer. Most recently when he hired an engineer from one…

> Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace No, as a non american living in the US i find american obsession with race fascinating. DEI is about every characteristic on which human can differ and how those difference play a role in the work place. Race is of course a factor , but so are neuro divergence, language, culture, gender and sexuality. Hell even things like "Don't schedule a meeting before 9 A…

> No, as a non american living in the US i find american obsession with race fascinating.

Especially super weird is the hiring practises of (non-US) businesses OUTSIDE the US who've blindly copied this US DEI stuff without thinking if it even applies.

Several major Australian universities (and some gov departments) practically don't hire white males any more. As several friends already working at these places have complained about in private.

Sometimes forwarding the "new and updated policy" mass emails from HR about it, just to show how insane things have become.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#62

Post by fwungy »

The problem of DEI is that it creates an environment of what psychologists refer to as 'Secondary Gain'

Secondary Gain

In psychoanalytic theory, the advantage derived from a neurosis in addition to the primary gain of relief from anxiety or internal conflict. Advantages may include extra attention, sympathy, avoidance of work, and domination of others. Such gains are secondary in that they are derived from others’ reactions to the neurosis instead of from causal factors. They often prolong the neurosis and create resistance to therapy. Also called advantage by illness.

https://dictionary.apa.org/secondary-gain

Once a hindrance becomes a benefit all sorts of incentive problems begin to arise.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#63

Post by xvector »

KaiserPro wrote: post #29

I don't quite understand the anger that DEI gets, unless people assume that people are only hired because they belong to a certain group. I'm not US based, so I only see that "safe for UK" view of what $Company blast over to us. Musk and Thiel see the world in very specific ways. Because they are who they are, and the people that surround them, they will not change their view unless something drastic happens. They si…

> Done properly, most people wont notice.

I guess that's the problem. When it's not done properly, you can't criticize it, because you'll get fired.

And when it's not done properly, it's catastrophic (ie lowering hiring bars, hiring no-hire candidates, etc.)

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#64

Post by lopkeny12ko »

MyShawdowySelf wrote: post #51
lopkeny12ko wrote: post #10

DEI as a philosophy is fundamentally flawed. Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace, yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist? I raised this with colleagues on a few separate ocassions and was promptly shunned, yet they didn't have an answer. Most recently when he hired an engineer from one…

> Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace No, as a non american living in the US i find american obsession with race fascinating. DEI is about every characteristic on which human can differ and how those difference play a role in the work place. Race is of course a factor , but so are neuro divergence, language, culture, gender and sexuality. Hell even things like "Don't schedule a meeting before 9 A…

> However the other side of the equation, if there some aspect of the workplace ( such as say every important meeting are at 8 AM) are needlessly preventing certain people of expressing their talent... we should also look into it.

This is a disingeuous point of comparison, because this is a behavior that can easily be corrected. Just set an alarm clock like everyone else. On the other hand, I cannot correct the fact that I am from a non-minority background. How is it in any way fair for me to be disadvantaged in the hiring process for something I cannot control?

> Maybe look into the statistics to see if usually those type of candidate would have been rejected.

This sounds like a question asked in bad faith. Rather than analyzing hiring outcomes by background, does it not make a lot more sense to analyze hiring decisions based on interview performance, totally independent of race/language/gender/etc.

If this data is then correlated against race, and hiring decisions are provably equitable across races, then great! But anecdotal evidence suggests this is not the case.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#65

Post by throaweee123 »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #49
throaweee123 wrote: post #24

"Due to the current economic situation we don't have new headcount for our org however feel free to reach out if you have a diverse candidate that would be interested in joining" From a director during a all-hands. "We have already selected a male candidate for the internship so it'd be best if the next one was a woman" From my manager's manager. "Your no-hire vote should have more justification since the candidate i…

I don’t see why you need legal protections. A diversity of thought can bring value. If the manager said, “We currently only have staff with public sector experience. We don’t have headcount for more folks. But let me know if you have someone with private sector experience. They are extremely rare, and could really open up the way we solve the problem.” Would that offend you in the same way?

No because the would be competency based. If we need a senior Go programmer and the candidate is only experienced in Python it makes sense to pass.

Interviewing someone who is male and getting told that we can't hire them because they are male is gender-based discrimination.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#66

Post by normalaccess »

lopkeny12ko wrote: post #10

DEI as a philosophy is fundamentally flawed. Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace, yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist? I raised this with colleagues on a few separate ocassions and was promptly shunned, yet they didn't have an answer. Most recently when he hired an engineer from one…

I think the idea that it's "fighting radicalism" has always been a ploy. Take a real moment to look at it and it's flawed on almost every level. I believe it's a candy coated "virtue" shell they wrap around their hatred for white people and white culture.

The color wars have been going on for at least 100 years in the US. Just look at the testimony of Manning Johnson. The communists of the 1920s realized that race was the weakest point in the American social fabric and bent a large quantity of resources on that point (and probably still do). If they figured that out then others have too.

EDIT: Spelling

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#67

Post by yieldcrv »

Its all been poorly implemented, and would be supporters are invalidated for disagreeing with the implementation

Of course those days were numbered amongst organizations that have to focus on revenue instead of social justice

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#68

Post by growse »

lopkeny12ko wrote: post #64
MyShawdowySelf wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace No, as a non american living in the US i find american obsession with race fascinating. DEI is about every characteristic on which human can differ and how those difference play a role in the work place. Race is of course a factor , but so are neuro divergence, language, culture, gender and sexuality. Hell even things like "Don't schedule a meeting before 9 A…

> However the other side of the equation, if there some aspect of the workplace ( such as say every important meeting are at 8 AM) are needlessly preventing certain people of expressing their talent... we should also look into it. This is a disingeuous point of comparison, because this is a behavior that can easily be corrected. Just set an alarm clock like everyone else. On the other hand, I cannot correct the fact…

> Just set an alarm clock like everyone else

This person does not have, or does not know anybody with a sleep disorder.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#69

Post by Mountain_Skies »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #49
throaweee123 wrote: post #24

"Due to the current economic situation we don't have new headcount for our org however feel free to reach out if you have a diverse candidate that would be interested in joining" From a director during a all-hands. "We have already selected a male candidate for the internship so it'd be best if the next one was a woman" From my manager's manager. "Your no-hire vote should have more justification since the candidate i…

I don’t see why you need legal protections. A diversity of thought can bring value. If the manager said, “We currently only have staff with public sector experience. We don’t have headcount for more folks. But let me know if you have someone with private sector experience. They are extremely rare, and could really open up the way we solve the problem.” Would that offend you in the same way?

If the goal is diversity of thought, why select based on physical characteristics instead of asking question about areas of thought that are underrepresented in the company? If the company has no communists, shouldn't you look for communists instead trying to link that thought pattern with a physical attribute? And does this purported desire for diversity of thought extend to all types of thoughts or just a narrow range? Is an entire rainbow of thought welcome or just some range of shades of purple?

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#70

Post by JohnFen »

lopkeny12ko wrote: post #64
MyShawdowySelf wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace No, as a non american living in the US i find american obsession with race fascinating. DEI is about every characteristic on which human can differ and how those difference play a role in the work place. Race is of course a factor , but so are neuro divergence, language, culture, gender and sexuality. Hell even things like "Don't schedule a meeting before 9 A…

> However the other side of the equation, if there some aspect of the workplace ( such as say every important meeting are at 8 AM) are needlessly preventing certain people of expressing their talent... we should also look into it. This is a disingeuous point of comparison, because this is a behavior that can easily be corrected. Just set an alarm clock like everyone else. On the other hand, I cannot correct the fact…

> How is it in any way fair for me to be disadvantaged in the hiring process for something I cannot control?

I don't think that you are.

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