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Tech's DEI backlash is here

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Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#31

Post by giraffe_lady »

xvector wrote: post #23
giraffe_lady wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you should take some responsibility for your own resentment rather than passively saying another party has "fostered" it. I'm not a fan of corporate and especially tech DEI initiatives either, I don't think they're an effective way to achieve their stated goals. But the hiring bar thing just does not match my experience at all. Some of the worst teams I've been on have been behind some of the most gruelin…

> Some of the worst teams I've been on have been behind some of the most grueling & "selective" interview processes By this process we should just drop hiring bars altogether. But for every team I've worked at, hiring bars clearly worked. We filter out maybe 95% of candidates and none of them would work for our team. Everyone on our team is incredible at what they do. When I had to lower the hiring bar, it was destru…

[flagged]

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#32

Post by anonporridge »

lopkeny12ko wrote: post #10

DEI as a philosophy is fundamentally flawed. Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace, yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist? I raised this with colleagues on a few separate ocassions and was promptly shunned, yet they didn't have an answer. Most recently when he hired an engineer from one…

DEI and affirmative action are systemic racism in a very literal sense.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#33

Post by lacker »

One great things about the tech industry is that it includes people from many sorts of backgrounds. People from many different countries and many different cultures, especially immigrants. China, India, and eastern Europe are heavily represented, but so are immigrants from other places, and second-generation immigrants.

This is real diversity, and it's wrong to evaluate diversity in a way that ignores this.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#35

Post by rglover »

lopkeny12ko wrote: post #10

DEI as a philosophy is fundamentally flawed. Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace, yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist? I raised this with colleagues on a few separate ocassions and was promptly shunned, yet they didn't have an answer. Most recently when he hired an engineer from one…

> Is this not in itself inherently racist?

Yes. It's assuming that the non-white person is in some way incompetent or lesser than (soft bigotry of low expectations) and needs a boost from the feigned-benevolence of the white man (or opportunistic "person of color").

FWIW, I'm mixed-race (white/black) and was mouth-agape at how this got as far as it did the past few years.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#36

Post by verdverm »

My $0.02

DEI is good in principle but poorly executed.

Diversity is good for business. You want people from different backgrounds and different ways of thinking.

But we have had a problem in tech of hiring only people like we already have, whether it be age, attitude, or race. At the same time, the DEI initiatives went too far. I am ok with racial targets that try to bring the company numbers closer to the local geography, but not the national statistics. We also have to be mindful that the qualified candidate pool may not yet allow us to reach parity. We should also be investing in the pipeline much earlier so that the qualified candidate pool has parity with the local geography.

The DEI effort we saw was an over reaction to our self created self similar selection bias. The pendulum is swinging back now, but we should not throw everything away. Maybe we can think about it like we do our software... rapid cycles of iteration and learning

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#37

Post by MightyBuzzard »

EA-3167 wrote: post #20
sdsd wrote: post #11

Oof. I bet people are reticent to post any comments here. That's good - it's hard to post about this topic in a way that doesn't detract from the overall tone and quality of HN. No one wants to post some James Damore screed decrying the longhouse, nor some 2010s style social justice screed. No matter which side you argue, you'll get a 1,000 very uninteresting comments from uncurious ideologues doing their duty to def…

IMO some topics can't be meaningfully discussed between a group of largely anonymous people, especially when the existence of... hostile interlocutors is always present. There are people I know offline who I'd avoid discussing these topics with, never mind millions of people I've never met, who's body language I can't see, and who's sincerity I can't identify. As you said, it's tiring, and there are other things to t…

[dead]

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#38

Post by KaiserPro »

lopkeny12ko wrote: post #10

DEI as a philosophy is fundamentally flawed. Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace, yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist? I raised this with colleagues on a few separate ocassions and was promptly shunned, yet they didn't have an answer. Most recently when he hired an engineer from one…

> yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist?

yes, which is why that kind of thing is illegal in the UK.

Proper DEI is about creating a decent pipeline of people, that includes outreach, or having training programmes for non-traditional juniors.

And, if done properly, its a great way to lower your wage bill, as you hire people at more junior levels and keep them longer. (you need to job hop to get good wage increases.) But that requires a commitment to develop your own team. (regardless of who they are)

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#39

Post by thinkingemote »

woodpanel wrote: post #30
woodpanel wrote: post #15

Couple of years ago I've excelled at a lead position interview, we've arrived at the part where I get to just spitball questions about their company, team and overall culture. I just talked about how I think it is important for leaders to have an extra-fine antenna for the psychological well-being of your colleages when in a remote-first environment. The moment I uttered the word "psychological" it triggered the inte…

Aww, I can't say I'm surprised that this text of mine (an open confession by a major european tech company to have racist employment standards) would be getting down-votes :-) Or of course that a link criticizing DEI would get flagged on HN. Shocker.

HN Guidelines suggest not going on about down votes btw

"Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading."

I agree though it's understandable if a bit sad that this submission gets flag killed. Better to stick to safer tech stuff unless there's a big story I guess!

Personally I don't believe the hype of this "backlash". It smells manufactured.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#40

Post by Hnrobert42 »

lopkeny12ko wrote: post #10

DEI as a philosophy is fundamentally flawed. Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace, yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist? I raised this with colleagues on a few separate ocassions and was promptly shunned, yet they didn't have an answer. Most recently when he hired an engineer from one…

Your assertions have two potentials flaws.

1. You assume that giving a certain race a favorable edge is unfair. If the premise of DEI is correct, that the field is tilted against certain races, then having a preference for those races is leveling the playing field, not tilting it in their favor.

2. Perhaps hiring a no-hire was exactly the right thing to do. Perhaps the interviewers were prejudiced against the candidate for reasons other than merit. Of course, I don’t know the exact situation, so I said “potential” flaws.

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