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Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

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Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#571

Post by arghwhat »

mendigou wrote: post #456
Acinyx wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In europe the connections are a lot lower amperage, around here for example 35 ampere per phase. But having 3 phases is pretty normal and the standard in any new house, which means 3 phases can let you charge at 22kW with a few Ampere left, while with 1 phase you can only charge at 7 KW. That does make it useful to charge it in a few hours in the afternoon, instead of having to wiat the night.

In which European country is triphasic power for houses becoming normal?

In Denmark, the only places without triphase power are some very old apartments in inner Copenhagen. To be fair, some of those apartments predate US independence by a hundred years. Those buildings do have triphasic power, but had a silly scheme where each apartment got two random phases.

All houses have triphasic power (usually 35A per phase, sometimes 63A), and all apartment buildings with electrics from the last 2-3 decades provide triphasic power to each apartment as well.

Our ovens and cooktops expect triphasic power, with a two-phase downgraded configuration for backup.

Same for Sweden I believe.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#572

Post by [deleted] »

bluGill wrote: post #229
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thank you Tesla for helping bring about a better standard here! You should probably thank the government, too. When the feds decided they were going to put billions in subsidies to a national charging network, the original regulations basically required CCS, because that was really the only cross-platform game in town - Tesla was proprietary and not open to other automakers. In a brilliant bit of chutzpah, in respo…

A large number of standards are what one company did on their own and then made available to everybody via the likes of ANSI/ECMA/ISO. There are a number of reasons a company would want to do this.

[deleted]

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#573

Post by Rebelgecko »

amluto wrote: post #543
Rebelgecko wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that negotiation already part of the CCS protocol? Otherwise 400v cars would be fried when they end up getting 800v from an L3 charger, or a Bolt would end up getting 300kW that it can't actually use

Yes, but if there’s a dumb adapter between the car and the charger, how do the car and charger know it’s there and know its current and voltage limits (which may be less than the car’s)?

Can't you just buy the right adapter for your car/? I think that's how TeslaTap does it, they sell a few different amp options.

Or is the issue trusting people to buy the right one?

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#574

Post by brnt »

rconti wrote: post #522
brnt wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing random apps sounds janky as hell. I only install vetted apps from F droid. I wouldn't give a charging station access to my phone.

It is janky as hell, but it sounds like EV owners are making their lives more difficult in just slightly different ways from how you're making your life more difficult :)

I really can't believe how the idea of giving random companies access to electronics, which is what installing an app means, ever got normalised, even among techies. I guess people also do give out tons of personal details just because some form asks them. It goes against any and all security advice even regular people are now given. I guess it's true: the brosephs ook over...

So having an electric car requires an smartphone, one on which you can install random software, where you want to install random software, and have internet (cause I suppose there's no WiFi at those bornes) and you have a CC (also not true for many).

Good to know that this isn't for me.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#575

Post by matthewdgreen »

conjecTech wrote: post #159
InTheArena wrote: post #57

I think people are missing the big story here. This is Tesla winning the charging network battle (it wasn't close before this). Any EV car (which will eventually be all cars) will immediately be available for Tesla's supercharger network. This gives Tesla a massive revenue stream and scale to grow that network even bigger. Anyone who wants their superchargers has to also support all Teslas.

People also made the argument that the exclusivity of the Tesla supercharger network was a positive for Tesla. It's hard for both to be true. I think the reality is that uncertainty about charging away from home pushed a lot of people towards Tesla who might otherwise have considered a different make/model. With that gone, a moat vanished. That being said, competition in the US EV market is still weak. Maybe the adde…

The flipside argument is that Tesla has by far the largest fleet. If Tesla had forced the industry to standardize on a non-Tesla connector, and subsequently more charging options had popped up to support it, there was a risk (to Tesla or their customers) that they would have to retrofit millions of cars or force their customers to use annoying dongles. Now that risk is gone, and they also own the dominant charging network in North America and billions in subsidies.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#576

Post by Symbiote »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #564
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting at the root of the problem here, which is that Visa doesn't actually support anything like that and "whatever" is going to add another grubby middle man to the transaction, which is the thing that most needs to be prevented. You're fundamentally trying to transfer your money to the operator of the charger, but they aren't standing around to give cash to, so you want something digital. Alright, so your…

Visa et al are going to charge a minimum transaction fee for small-value transactions, which covers the typical charging session. Third party services are an advantage, because they can bundle small transactions together and take advantage of their economies of scale and their own fraud models. There is a world where Visa and the payment card industry looked forward in the year 2005 and said “IoT devices like EVs wil…

The transactions are of higher value than many public transport tickets, and those are already common — either as normal purchases from a ticket machine, or with the special transaction type used when the payment card is touched to the reader on the ticket barrier.

Following a recent trip I had a bunch of ~1€ transactions from buying single bus/metro tickets from machines.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#577

Post by Symbiote »

g_p wrote: post #460
VBprogrammer wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, contactless is ubiquitous in the UK – the experience is almost always seamless. The only exception being the odd reader with the antenna in a stupid place (these have gotten less common over time) or when your bank decides to force a pin check.

How would paying for an EV charge work like this? Would you select an amount of credit in currency (presumably via buttons on the charger?) then tap-to-pay for that amount? (I believe there are some limitations on tap-to-pay transactions to prevent a merchant presenting the transaction with a different value after actually tapping the card.) I think a lot of "pay at pump" fuel stations require a full insertion of the…

Public transport transactions (where the reader is directly on the ticket gate) are exempted from the soft lock, so maybe EV chargers could be too. At least for small amounts.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#578

Post by matthewdgreen »

mdasen wrote: post #202
conjecTech wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People also made the argument that the exclusivity of the Tesla supercharger network was a positive for Tesla. It's hard for both to be true. I think the reality is that uncertainty about charging away from home pushed a lot of people towards Tesla who might otherwise have considered a different make/model. With that gone, a moat vanished. That being said, competition in the US EV market is still weak. Maybe the adde…

Times change and companies need to adapt with the times. 2015-2022, exclusivity would be a huge positive for Tesla. Their vehicles would have lots of charging stations while other vehicles wouldn't. That's great for Tesla. When the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure plan, it became clear that CCS would become the dominant charging standard in the US - unless Tesla acted fast. Tesla's port would go from an advan…

I think a more pleasant way to put this is that NEVI created circumstances where Tesla could capture more value from an open standard than from a closed one. And did so at a relatively modest cost to the taxpayer, compared to the public benefits it will produce.

PS Did NEVI (or IRA) actually mandate CCS, or did it simply mandate an open standard, which CCS was the only option to satisfy at the time?

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#579

Post by matthewdgreen »

Symbiote wrote: post #576
matthewdgreen wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visa et al are going to charge a minimum transaction fee for small-value transactions, which covers the typical charging session. Third party services are an advantage, because they can bundle small transactions together and take advantage of their economies of scale and their own fraud models. There is a world where Visa and the payment card industry looked forward in the year 2005 and said “IoT devices like EVs wil…

The transactions are of higher value than many public transport tickets, and those are already common — either as normal purchases from a ticket machine, or with the special transaction type used when the payment card is touched to the reader on the ticket barrier. Following a recent trip I had a bunch of ~1€ transactions from buying single bus/metro tickets from machines.

Visa charges a 5-10 cent fixed fee plus a percentage for those 1 Euro transactions. Presumably public transport just eats those costs, but in a commodity business like electricity I imagine it’s a noticeable chunk of the profit margin.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#580

Post by ffgjgf1 »

Symbiote wrote: post #576
matthewdgreen wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visa et al are going to charge a minimum transaction fee for small-value transactions, which covers the typical charging session. Third party services are an advantage, because they can bundle small transactions together and take advantage of their economies of scale and their own fraud models. There is a world where Visa and the payment card industry looked forward in the year 2005 and said “IoT devices like EVs wil…

The transactions are of higher value than many public transport tickets, and those are already common — either as normal purchases from a ticket machine, or with the special transaction type used when the payment card is touched to the reader on the ticket barrier. Following a recent trip I had a bunch of ~1€ transactions from buying single bus/metro tickets from machines.

> of ~1€ transactions

In Europe, sure because the fees are capped. In the US you pay a fixed fee + x% which makes small transactions like this prohibitively expensive

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