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Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

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Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#561

Post by Retric »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #555
Retric wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars don’t need to have credit card details onboard. Hypothetical standard: Charger lets car open a low bandwidth internet connection. Car uses it (or cellular) to open an encrypted channel to a 3rd part service (Tesla/Visa/whatever) saying it’s VIN, password, and the charger’s ID. Charger gets payment from 3rd party. PS: I would rather chargers just had working credit card readers, but individual chargers don’t do m…

You're getting at the root of the problem here, which is that Visa doesn't actually support anything like that and "whatever" is going to add another grubby middle man to the transaction, which is the thing that most needs to be prevented. You're fundamentally trying to transfer your money to the operator of the charger, but they aren't standing around to give cash to, so you want something digital. Alright, so your…

I agree, except Visa and Mastercard are willing to innovate. Apple Pay/Google Wallet for cars isn’t an unrealistic goal.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#562

Post by grecy »

TheAlchemist wrote: post #518
grecy wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by 2030 > a company projecting to sell 10 million cars by that time At their latest investment day they very clearly said their goal is 20 million cars a year by 2030.

Yeah, but that was on the investor day - a lot of stupid things was said on that day. Like, and I quote here, "demand for our existing vehicles in terms of the desire to own them might as well be infinite"... Yeah, infinite demand for sure ! That's certainly why they were cutting prices aggressively.

> Yeah, infinite demand for sure ! That's certainly why they were cutting prices aggressively.

The Model Y is now the second best selling vehicle in the US, and the number one in the world. They're selling every single vehicle they can make, right on 2 million vehicles this year.

So far, demand continues to exceed production.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#563

Post by superjan »

fomine3 wrote: post #551
superjan wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is this downvoted? It is a legitimate question. You can comment if you have a counterargument.

Even if battery swap is a practical solution, fast charging is still needed. Obviously every fast chargers in rural area can't be replaced into battery swap station, too much stock costs. For fast chargers replacement in city, there's no enough space.

Actually I agree with you. My point was just that the comment I responded to was downvoted, and on the face of it, just because people disagreed.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#564

Post by matthewdgreen »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #555
Retric wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars don’t need to have credit card details onboard. Hypothetical standard: Charger lets car open a low bandwidth internet connection. Car uses it (or cellular) to open an encrypted channel to a 3rd part service (Tesla/Visa/whatever) saying it’s VIN, password, and the charger’s ID. Charger gets payment from 3rd party. PS: I would rather chargers just had working credit card readers, but individual chargers don’t do m…

You're getting at the root of the problem here, which is that Visa doesn't actually support anything like that and "whatever" is going to add another grubby middle man to the transaction, which is the thing that most needs to be prevented. You're fundamentally trying to transfer your money to the operator of the charger, but they aren't standing around to give cash to, so you want something digital. Alright, so your…

Visa et al are going to charge a minimum transaction fee for small-value transactions, which covers the typical charging session. Third party services are an advantage, because they can bundle small transactions together and take advantage of their economies of scale and their own fraud models. There is a world where Visa and the payment card industry looked forward in the year 2005 and said “IoT devices like EVs will need payment capability, let’s think about how to be essential to this ecosystem in a way that removes the need for third party services and saves everyone money” but that kind of technical innovation seems to be outside of their core competency.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#565

Post by londons_explore »

Shank wrote: post #381
Animats wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can Tesla refuse to charge a car at their whim? Because, say, you were banned from Twitter/X? Too many fast charges this week? Covered the driver-facing camera?

Tesla currently revokes supercharging status on salvage title vehicles on their network. Depending on the title and circumstances, it can be annoying to get working again.

There are hacks to make the car appear as if it is another car...

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#566

Post by stephenr »

apexalpha wrote: post #190
keep_reading wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CCS2 is terrible, I'd hate to be forced to use that giant bulky connector and cable. The EU got it wrong. Design by committee always sucks.

It was designed by VW I think, who handed it over to other car companies so there could be a universal connector. The reason it's bigger is because it supports 3-phase power, which NACS does not. 3-phase power is a big thing in Europe.

The CCS Type 2 plug was designed by Mennekes - it's even referred to as "Mennekes plug" in some places.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#567

Post by londons_explore »

InTheArena wrote: post #414
reportingsjr wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically how USB C became a thing. A group of engineers at Google created the connector design and then gave it to the USB standards body to use as the next gen.

Go look at the number of engineers that were on USB-C. Apple, not Google, contributed 18 of 79 named engineers listed on the connector certification project, or under 23%. Intel had the most, as well as the editor position.

I think those 79 engineers should have paid more attention to compatibility and longevity. The cable should have been tested in a dirt tumbler. There is no way a cable should have 32 pins without some kind of built in self test of connectivity on all the pins every time you plug it in. Pins should be reassignable so that when 6 of the 32 pins are dirty/broken the cable still works at a slightly reduced speed.

All the Comms should have been done via an OFDM-like scheme rather than just a binary sequence over a twisted pair, giving far more throughput and allowing for compensating for conductive dirt in the plug causing crosstalk.

Overall, I believe such a design would have reduced costs, since there is no longer a need for such precision on cable and plug manufacture, which more than compensates for a tiny OFDM 'modem' inside the USB phy.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#568

Post by stephenr »

mardifoufs wrote: post #182
apexalpha wrote: post #135

I understand the ridicule that the EU gets sometimes, and especially so when trying to regulate stuff like AI where it seems the EU wants to regulate more than to create start ups etc... But this is one thing the EU just nailed the hammer into the wood immediatly, and rightly so. I can't even remember the time it was. Maybe 2013? 2014? They just set a standard and everyone, even Tesla, adopted it. Every single EV can…

Huh? If anything this disproves your point. Industrial players quickly (all things considered) converged on a superior format. I usually agree with you on standardizing stuff like this but this isn't an example of top down standardization leading to better outcomes. Not necessarily worse, but not better either.

> converged on a superior format

I don't have any skin in this game (not American, currently own a Petrol car in SEA and a Diesel in Australia), but isn't the move to NACS almost entirely driven by manufacturers wanting (customer) access to the better-maintained and faster charging network, rather than some intrinsic benefit of the plug itself?

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#569

Post by ajsnigrutin »

BenjiWiebe wrote: post #525
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you have a cable with 2.5mm^2 wires, each of which can carry 20A of current to stay within code. At 230V that's 4600W. Now you want more power, to keep the math simple, let's say 13800W (3x the power above). With a one phase system, for 3x the power, you need 3x the size of wire, so 7.5mm^2, ie. 3x the amount of copper (since all wires, neutral and PE have to be that size too). With a three phase system, yo…

Not sure what PE is in this example, but you don't need a neutral in 3 phase.

You don't need it in a "triangle"/"delta" wiring, but you need it in a "star"/"Y" - https://www.electronicshub.org/comparison-star-delta-connect...

PE is protective earth, grounding wire. Usually you need PE and neutral lines separate for FID (GFCI) protection.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#570

Post by arghwhat »

ttfkam wrote: post #303
jorvi wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supercharging, yeah. But you (or rather "everyone") won't constantly be supercharging. You'll mostly do it at home or at your office. 7kW :)

Places where you don't need a fast charge? Overnight at home. From arrival to lunch at work. After lunch to quitting time. And even those times assume you drive more than 50 miles/day, which most folks don't. What was the problem again?

While not the norm, 100km each way is not an unusual commute (I did that for years). With winter driving, long days out and long commutes, I suppose you could get to a point where 7kW AC slow-charging does not cut it, and having room for cheap upgrades don't hurt.

You want to charge as slow as possible for your need, but needs do vary.

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