An underground delivery train comes to the Atlanta suburbs • Hacker News Board

Re: An underground delivery train comes to the Atlanta suburbs

#131

Post by treis » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 9:49 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #103

throw310822 wrote: post #59

If any Dutch entrepreneur is listening: I have been dreaming about the same delivery mechanism for the Netherlands. Difference with Atlanta? There are canals everywhere, inside and outside the cities. It might be possible to just lay a waterproof pipe at the bottom of many existing canals to create an extremely cheap network for autonomous robotic deliveries.

It feels like repairing such a system would be significantly more difficult - if you get a crack or a leak, your whole system is suddenly flooded, and if you need to repair just one section, you have to find a way to keep the rest dry.

Probably can keep it pressurized enough to keep water out if there's a crack.

Re: An underground delivery train comes to the Atlanta suburbs

#132

Post by throw310822 » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:03 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #131

pavel_lishin wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like repairing such a system would be significantly more difficult - if you get a crack or a leak, your whole system is suddenly flooded, and if you need to repair just one section, you have to find a way to keep the rest dry.

Probably can keep it pressurized enough to keep water out if there's a crack.

Seems like keeping them pressurised would add yet more costs. I would rather let the sections fail (assuming it's rare) and have automatic valves sealing the failed section from the rest (something very simple, like an inflating balloon that fills the entire diameter of the pipe).

Re: An underground delivery train comes to the Atlanta suburbs

#133

Post by dingnuts » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:07 PM UTC

NegativeLatency wrote: post #122

conductr wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like comments like this always come up. Basically reducing it to, why not just become Manhattan? They want a solution for today, not decades from today which is what urban planning would take. But also they likely want the neighborhood they built/moved to. They don’t want to live in a super dense mixed use plaza. They also want solutions that the plethora of communities like theirs can replicate. They just wan…

Classic straw man argument, there's a pretty big difference from a walkable and incrementally more dense neighborhood and Manhattan. We're not going to tear down and rebuild everything all at once, it's going to take time and work to get us out of the massive car dependent hole we've dug for ourselves. It seems Atlanta has massively oversupplied (to it's own detriment) parking and prioritized space for cars, and negl…

Your quote only adds to the GP's point -- Atlanta is so far from being walkable that it will take half a century of very good urban planning before the problem solved by the article is solved in the way that would make the r/fuckcars posters that show up in every thread on this site about transportation would like it to be.

People arguing that Atlanta should just permit "denser and mixed-use development, so employees can walk to their favorite restaurants on the ground floor instead of driving >1km" as a short-term solution to the massive sprawl that is Atlanta have absolutely no idea of the gargantuan undertaking they are proposing and it's sort of ironic that they propose that undertaking as an "easier" solution to the problem than the one in the article.

I think it's telling that the person who made this comment used km -- it's obvious they are not American, and know very little about Atlanta or about the suburbs around it or how people live there. I, on the other hand, have first-hand experience.

Don't ask me about it though, I don't read replies to my comments on this hellsite

Re: An underground delivery train comes to the Atlanta suburbs

#134

Post by keyboard_slap » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:07 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #129

keyboard_slap wrote: post #98

What problem is this system trying to solve? It seems to be, in this initial deployment, that the office park is too far away from the restaurants its employees want to visit, compelling them to drive there. I feel like a better solution would be permitting denser and mixed-use development, so employees can walk to their favorite restaurants on the ground floor instead of driving >1km to them or paying for a delivery…

I'll never understand these sort of objections to convenience in favor of density. This is awesome and I can see it being a utility similar to water pipes or electricity going to a house for the same reason we all have mailboxes. Delivery is convenient and this could make it cheap and fast.

I'm not objecting to convince in favor of density because there isn't a choice to be made between the two. You can have convenience in low or high density development. The difference is in cost and complexity; high density development has all the convenience with fewer delivery costs

Re: An underground delivery train comes to the Atlanta suburbs

#135

Post by conductr » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:10 PM UTC

NegativeLatency wrote: post #122

conductr wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like comments like this always come up. Basically reducing it to, why not just become Manhattan? They want a solution for today, not decades from today which is what urban planning would take. But also they likely want the neighborhood they built/moved to. They don’t want to live in a super dense mixed use plaza. They also want solutions that the plethora of communities like theirs can replicate. They just wan…

Classic straw man argument, there's a pretty big difference from a walkable and incrementally more dense neighborhood and Manhattan. We're not going to tear down and rebuild everything all at once, it's going to take time and work to get us out of the massive car dependent hole we've dug for ourselves. It seems Atlanta has massively oversupplied (to it's own detriment) parking and prioritized space for cars, and negl…

It's not mutually exclusive, we can implement this while working on urban planning/re-design since that takes so long. But, we should start that in places already primed for it, like the straw man you mentioned, Downtown Atlanta parking lots.

Re: An underground delivery train comes to the Atlanta suburbs

#136

Post by rgmerk » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:10 PM UTC

sojournerc wrote: post #130

cpursley wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who don’t care to walk, I suppose.

No, I think it was generalizing an entire country of people with an "us" vs "them" tone

I think it's pretty fair to suggest that the United States (with very limited exceptions) is the least pedestrian-friendly country in the developed world.

Re: An underground delivery train comes to the Atlanta suburbs

#137

Post by Rebelgecko » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:15 PM UTC

thorncorona wrote: post #117

cpursley wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you spent any time in Atlanta in August? Biking outside is not just biking, but also swimming - through the humidity. I don't mind it (avid all-season mountain biker) but most office workers wouldn't opt for that in their fancy office clothing just for a sandwich.

Seems to work fine for singapore / dc.

I think it's hard to say things are fine when there's still huge gender disparities, in DC area it's something like 2:1

Re: An underground delivery train comes to the Atlanta suburbs

#138

Post by conductr » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:15 PM UTC

keyboard_slap wrote: post #134

treis wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll never understand these sort of objections to convenience in favor of density. This is awesome and I can see it being a utility similar to water pipes or electricity going to a house for the same reason we all have mailboxes. Delivery is convenient and this could make it cheap and fast.

I'm not objecting to convince in favor of density because there isn't a choice to be made between the two. You can have convenience in low or high density development. The difference is in cost and complexity; high density development has all the convenience with fewer delivery costs

What's the cost of rebuilding our existing tangible cities for density? Is that without complexity? What about consideration for time?

It's not as easy as hitting "new game" on Sim City

Re: An underground delivery train comes to the Atlanta suburbs

#139

Post by keyboard_slap » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:17 PM UTC

dingnuts wrote: post #133

NegativeLatency wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classic straw man argument, there's a pretty big difference from a walkable and incrementally more dense neighborhood and Manhattan. We're not going to tear down and rebuild everything all at once, it's going to take time and work to get us out of the massive car dependent hole we've dug for ourselves. It seems Atlanta has massively oversupplied (to it's own detriment) parking and prioritized space for cars, and negl…

Your quote only adds to the GP's point -- Atlanta is so far from being walkable that it will take half a century of very good urban planning before the problem solved by the article is solved in the way that would make the r/fuckcars posters that show up in every thread on this site about transportation would like it to be. People arguing that Atlanta should just permit "denser and mixed-use development, so employees…

I'm American and have lived most of my life in American suburbs. I don't like them very much, and I don't like the imperial system.

I don't think denser development is a short term solution, but I don't like short term solutions either. Short term planning is part of what made traffic in cities like Atlanta so bad. And IMO it seemed like a fair suggestion because extending these tunnels to every house in suburban Atlanta wouldn't be a short process either.

Re: An underground delivery train comes to the Atlanta suburbs

#140

Post by mym1990 » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:19 PM UTC

dingnuts wrote: post #133

NegativeLatency wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classic straw man argument, there's a pretty big difference from a walkable and incrementally more dense neighborhood and Manhattan. We're not going to tear down and rebuild everything all at once, it's going to take time and work to get us out of the massive car dependent hole we've dug for ourselves. It seems Atlanta has massively oversupplied (to it's own detriment) parking and prioritized space for cars, and negl…

Your quote only adds to the GP's point -- Atlanta is so far from being walkable that it will take half a century of very good urban planning before the problem solved by the article is solved in the way that would make the r/fuckcars posters that show up in every thread on this site about transportation would like it to be. People arguing that Atlanta should just permit "denser and mixed-use development, so employees…

Atlanta as a metropolitan area should not be used to set a bar for walkability. It is a massive city. Instead, one should take neighborhoods and start there. Atlanta certainly has walkable neighborhoods, what it lacks is efficient infrastructure to get from one neighborhood to another.