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Math Team

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Re: Math Team

#31

I'm from Scandinavia, and I always find it both fascinating and alien how much focus the US system puts on extracurriculars - and more specifically competitive extracurricular activities. On one side, it is probably good to motivate pupils to aim for something, and get good at it - but on the other side, you obviously end up with a bunch of kids that are just really good at grinding away - even if their heart is not…

> I always find out both fascinating and alien how much focus the US system puts on extracurriculars

One factor could be that, AFAIU, schools in US have many more electives than in Europe. As a student you have the choice to take more advanced classes for one subject, and only basic in other subjects, whereas in Europe, the curriculum is standard for all. So Universities in US need to compare performance on different axes.

> Of course, that also has its downsides. People end up re-taking HS exams year after year, because someone beat their GPA with a decimal point.

Another downside to the one-size-fits-all standard curriculum, is that it forces you to care about classes that you don't really care about, while not being able to focus on the subjects that you're really interested in. I think in US, if you're really good at something, universities may ignore average-to-poor performance in other areas.

Re: Math Team

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He basically says "yes" at the end. Got an awesome job and career and became part of a tech power couple with his wife he met freshman year, all because of his high school struggles. In current late stage capitalism, I think this is the best outcome you can reasonably seek. You're either in the elite or scrounging around, reposting memes about doordashing mcdonalds and having too many roommates. I wish I had followed…

The problem with your suggestion is that it implicitly suggests death for loser commoners, of which there will always statistically be more. The loser commoners need some way to ensure their basic needs are met, or they find a way to do that anyways. For example, see all the "eat the rich" rhetoric. I don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting that people should try to make the most of what they have, but sug…

Great. So is your suggestion that high school students should focus on politics and building an equitable society instead of optimizing for themselves? That would be very altruistic indeed.

Re: Math Team

#33
post #19
post #14

The author writes a decent essay, but the claims that he makes about the mathematics curriculum don't really line up with my own experience of the subject, and I suspect has nothing to do with his actual trauma. This passage sticks out to me: >I kept getting put into advanced mathematics classes while missing core concepts from previous years.... Eventually I was in classes with no standard curriculum at all, classes…

Nice take-down, and I appreciate the points you raise, but isn't > if you're not willing to engage with your doubts, then you have no business putting your thoughts into an essay under the pretense of intellectual honesty. kind of talking about every essay, ever? The only people free from doubt are on ventilators and definitely aren't writing a lot of essays. The very act of writing an essay is engaging with (a few o…

>kind of talking about every essay, ever?

Absolutely not. Only the bad ones. An essay is an argument with yourself. If you take the explicit position that you should ignore your doubts, as this author does, then what you are putting on paper is your personal confirmation bias.

My hobby horse is not christianity, my hobby horse is the thing that he has insanely distilled from christianity as the part worth keeping. The author had a bad experience as a teen applying to elite colleges for no other reason than because he was supposed to, and the conclusion he should be drawing from this observation is so obvious that you might not even notice that he doesn't.

Re: Math Team

#34

In the 4th paragraph he describes “the arc of a stone falling to earth” as an exponential function. Is that true? I always thought it was quadratic.

Solutions to linear differential equations are exponentials, and this may be what the author meant. In a state space model, we can write Newton's law under gravity if we let y(t) = [x(t), x'(t)]^T, let A = [ 0, 1; 0 0], let b = [0, -g]^T, and set y'(t) = A y(t) + b.

Indeed, the solution is y(t) = exp(A t) (y0 + int_0^t exp(-As) b ds).

In Einstein's theory, we have a generalization which says a stone's path through space-time follows a geodesic of the metric. In differential geometry, the exponential function, by definition, sends tangent vectors to geodesic curves.

So the author is right, under this interpretation.

Re: Math Team

#35

The author and I have discussed this elsewhere, but we had dramatically different experiences with competitive math, and I think part of the key is that he experienced it as a part of the college admissions grind, while I experienced it as an escape from the classroom to go do cool puzzles. My major takeaway from his article was "The things we do in the high-stakes holistic admissions structure we've set up are insan…

Interestingly, his takeaway seems to be that it was probably all worth it.

Re: Math Team

#36
> A mathlete is someone who participates in math competitions. He (almost always he)

That wasn't my experience. But FWIW I went to a public high school.

My friend (her) and I (he) both got accepted into an elite school, but we both had to go state colleges, because our families couldn't afford to send us. This was decades ago, when they didn't give out as many need-based grants.

Re: Math Team

#37
post #21

The author sounds burnt out and bitter. I get that he tried really hard and didn't quite make it as far as he wanted, but this reads like he's holding onto a lot of resentment for no good reason. My experience with doing competitive math and programming stuff was generally quite enjoyable even though I never did the best or made it to an ivy league school. I'd still encourage any kid who's at all interested to try th…

I think the problem the author is referring to is it stopped being about Math and much more about impressing random strangers for the chance to gain an opportunity.

My experience is similar to you - I too really enjoyed my time doing these activities but once everything I ever enjoyed started becoming brownie points for my college applications, the competition started becoming "Grind X tasks and Y patterns so you can make the grade! Cause if you don't solve this in 14 minutes, then that kid will and he'll get your position!"

Re: Math Team

#38

High school, at least as far as it serves as a sorting mechanism for top students, follows a kind of Parkinson's law: the number of hoops to jump through increases until it reaches the natural limit of how little sleep the top students can handle. There were rumblings that my high school, which had plenty of AP classes already, was about to introduce a combination AP/IB curriculum, which absolutely terrified us. I an…

Indeed. In my time, it wasn't uncommon to have 6 AP classes a semester along with at least one time-intensive extracurricular. Assuming each class is the equivalent of 3 credit hours, it's the equivalent of an above average number of classes in college (15 being the expected amount, 12 being the minimum to be a full-time student, and 18 considered intensive) while playing a competitive sport. The best part: Even a de…

There is a book called “Seven checkmarks” in Dutch that argues that succes in the Netherlands is strongly correlated to seven checkmarks to have: male, highly educated parents, white, certain type of elite high school, university educated and one more. Having all the marks, having generally underperformed academically and still coming out on top comparatively I feel there might be some truth in it. It would signal a quite stratified society with a “ruler class” inside a society that thinks of itself as classless for the last 60 years at least. (It’s pretty hard to reason about this being while being under scrutiny.)

Why post this? After reading your comment I thought wouldn’t want to live there or raise children there. But the second thought was, wait - that’s meritocracy in action. Imperfect meritocracy as you point out, but it might still be more equitable not than having seven checkmarks and generally faring worse than those born under a different star. My Rawlsian self thinks grit should be rewarded more than birth, even though testing for grit would probably massively increase burnout.

Thinking even further, I don’t think that societies with “high grit” (Korea, US) are generally considered to treat their children and general society very equitable. Still mentally debating if there is a very socialist argument growing inside of me. That book (read it three months ago) does make me think a lot. It was the first time something ‘near-woke’ made me think so hard. The book mentions the reflective point as well - might I only take it that seriously because it was written by someone from the same “class”? Foundational stuff.

Re: Math Team

#39
The author mentions at one point that he was unable to solve a problem because he didn't memorize the formula for the Euler totient function in order to count the number of numbers relatively prime to 9999.

...but its actually an interesting (and not super difficult) exercise in its own right to figure this out even if you don't know the formula. Encourage you all to give it a shot.

SPOILERS: 9999 = 3^2 * 11 * 101, so first subtract out the multiples of 3 (3333 of them), the multiples of 11 (909 of them), the multiples of 101 (99 of them). Note that we've now double-subtracted multiples of 33 (303 of them), multiples of 303 (33 of them), multiples of 1111 (9 of them) so add these back. Finally subtract 1 to not count 9999 itself.

phi(9999) = 9999 - 3333 - 909 - 101 + 33 + 303 + 9 - 1 = 6000

I guess my point is that the purpose of these problems is not to separate out people who know specific tricks from people who don't—its to separate out people who can reason their way through difficult mathematical problems and people who can't.

Re: Math Team

#40
This personal account resonated with me since I also had some personal experiences in both the "math competition" and "competitive high school" world up until I graduated high school in ~2018.

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I went to a middle school where I somehow ended up far ahead in the curriculum due to my own interest in science and math, thanks to my personal interests and parental support at the time. I think I caught the attention of my math teachers and got to participate in a county-wide middle school math competition with some other students at my school. It was cool, and I wasn't, and still am not, a super competitive person, so I thought it was a fun experience to try; I don't think we won anything significant. I also think I took an AIME-style competition exam (sit-down test), but I don't remember much about it. All of this was cool but not super interesting to me at the time.

Some wise teacher or fellow parent at the time must have tipped off my parents about Math Circles, and I am incredibly grateful that my parents took me there. Math circles (at least in my experience) are like local meetups for younger (usually non-college) students to go and learn about cool exploratory and advanced (non-standard curriculum) math topics from college students and professors. I used to be so excited to go on Saturdays to math circles and sit and watch an old professor from a local college teach topics like logic, number theory, advanced geometry, and other math topics that were definitely not taught in my middle school. I also distinctly remember that I loved the exploratory side of the math circles as opposed to competitive math where I felt like I wouldn't learn anything and I had to get everything correct. If you have kids who are curious about math or even science, nature, and art, I would highly look into whether there are Math Circles in your local area and at least try it out. Some of my fondest memories during this time are from Math Circles.

I somehow ended up getting a full scholarship to attend a local (non-religious) private school with one of the top competitive high school math teams in the nation (among other extracurriculars like debate, model UN, ...). The summer school started there, and I won't forget when I went to the information sessions for the math competition team. The "vibe" was very off as soon as I walked in and not what I was expecting. The competitiveness was very evident in your attendance and performance in the multiple-times-a-week after-school math competition classes, how the best get to be on the A and B teams, and so on. I think I walked into it with the preconceived notion that I was going to get to learn more math for fun by joining the math team (like I did in math circles), but my naive worldview was very much shattered. I think I attended one of the local math competition events that first semester of high school and took one of the sit-down style tests, but there was no way I scored any kind of decent amount to be considered for anything related to math competition at that school. I also had one good close friend who stuck with math competition for the four years of high school, and so I got to get an idea of what that was like, and it was just as crazy as I thought it would be the whole time. I am actually grateful for him since I also got to talk to that friend about a lot of cool advanced math topics before I took those math classes, as well as help me learn enough of the math ahead of time to take the advanced AP physics classes (the electricity and magnetism one) that I had genuine interest in.

Luckily, by my second year, I was able to land on "science research" (think liek a really competitive science fair, e.g., ISEF) as a nice extracurricular I enjoyed. Even in that, you cannot escape the competitive nature of it, but there are alternative ways to branch out on your own (real publication, working with local colleges and professors, just being able to say I completed this cool research project and made this cool thing) and put something on your "college resume" without having to pigeonhole yourself into competing against other students all the time. I did have to cycle through some other extracurriculars (model UN and FRC robotics) where I "crashed and burned" before I finally landed on one where I would feel "safe" in a sense to enjoy what I was doing with research.

Finally, the big push from the school onto the students to get into the most prestigious schools they can get into really led to some weird dynamics among students and really unhealthy kinds of stress and anxiety to cope with. I think (but memories are fuzzy) that I was able to dodge a lot of that just by the nature of not being super competitive, but there were many students who would lose their minds if they didn't get above a 90% on an exam in an AP level class, as in genuinely freak out and stress over it and then go to the teacher and try to sort it out. Any grade that would jeopardize their perception of being smart or getting the highest GPA possible to get into the best schools possible was an anxiety and stress-inducing nightmare for them. There was very much an idea that "I'm not going to tell everyone else what I got on an exam" to also hide class rankings and your own GPA. I'm also sure that none of us got any healthy amount of sleep needed; there were people pushing insane courseloads with all AP classes to pad their "college resumes." I remember taking some architecture classes instead, which I found much more fulfilling and fun, and then feeling out of place trying to talk to some of my other classmates at the time who were trying to min-max their GPA and college applications.

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Not to ramble on for too long, I just want to give an idea to some readers of another related personal perspective on this topic. Having been in some related environments in middle school and high school, I can really empathize with some of the genuine, agonizing, and sometimes lighthearted in hindsight, moments the author experienced. I can't imagine what it's like in 2023/2024, or even having kids in the future, what high school education will be like. Can students really find peace and comfort to just learn and pursue what interests them the most?

Quick epilogue: I did apply to all the prestigious schools that everyone else applied to (bless my parents for covering all the unnecessary application fees), but also thanks to my parents' pragmatism, I applied to some strong schools for engineering. I ended up down the Ph.D. route, and the exploratory open-endedness aspect of research is still what keeps me excited and happy in my day-to-day work.

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