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A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

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Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is tough for me to wrap my head around. It's pretty easy to explain: the controller took the pilot at his word, and immediately offered the fastest and safest option to get them on the ground, which was to land at Oakland. The runway thresholds at SFO and OAK are less than ten miles apart.

Exactly. ATC called his bluff and won. Note the pilot was not willing to even dare to break his company rules and do a visual, so why should ATC break theirs?

The Lufthansa pilot was like the guy who drives the Google bus in the carpool lane at the speed limit, slower than the cars in the other lanes.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#302
post #128

1/ Visual vs instrument approach. The main difference in this case is separation requirements that ATC must provide. Specifically, under IFR rules ATC mus provide 3 miles / 500 feet altitude separation minimum. For visual approaches, the separation is responsibility of the pilots and this enables parallel runway landings at SFO with much shorter intervals (there is a version of parallel landings with instrument appro…

The article and the video embedded within leave out a lot of context.

The Norcal controller was extremely unprofessional. Their behavior is a great example of the US controller attitude™ US ATC is so infamous for. No idea why this unprofessionalism is so prevalent in the US; I can only presume it has to do with being overworked and understaffed, with perhaps a pinch of god complex.

This was handled by Norcal, but SFO has an infamous controller whose poor behavior can be found all over the internet and the nearby smaller SQL controller who thought he was enough of a hot shit that he could lecture a designated examiner after the latter stepped in when the controller was acting like an unprofessional asshole on the radio.

A lot of this asshole behavior is targeted at international pilots, but enough of it is targeted at US pilots that I know of pilots who throw retirement parties for certain asshole controllers without inviting the retiree.

Anyways, let's focus on this particular incident.

For starters, SFO is a huge mess in every sense of the word. The design of the airport is just plain stupid, primarily the distance between the parallel runways that cause severe limitations when the weather isn't perfect.

Then there's the matter that SFO is just not suitable for the amount of traffic it gets, coupled with overworked controllers who rather kick the responsibility over to the pilots, leading to the visual approach and visual seperation preference by SFO.

Secondly, the notion that this is something new and novel that SFO has never heard of and can't do, or as the article puts it: "when all other planes are landing just fine", is just BS.

This flight from Munich comes in every night at SFO with the same IMC flight plan and the same path, so SFO/Norcal should be familiar with this, especially since it's their home base and Lufthansa is a regular customer.

Not only that, but many European airlines have the same regulations on visual separation at night as do other international airlines. The reason this is SOP with so many airlines is for a couple of reasons.

1) You cannot maintain visual separation at night based on lights only, there is no depth perception, and by the time you realize something's fucked, you're too late. TCAS isn't accurate enough for aircraft separation and explicitly states this in the manual.

2) The incident history in the US related to taking visuals at night supports the idea that this should not be allowed. The FDX170 incident in Tulsa comes to mind, or the ACA759 incident that nearly clipped a tail at SFO, no less.

3) The FAA advised against letting international airlines take visuals at night.

4) METAR had SCT and BKN cloud below 1500ft

On top of all that, PAL104 had received ILS just moments before without even asking for it (because it was in their flight plan).

So there's no need to act like this is some kind of extremely weird thing that blindsighted Norcal/SFO.

Thirdly, ultimately, the captain makes the determination of what they need, and the controller is supposed to provide that to the best of their ability. Had the controller taken the flight plan into account and had their experience with Lufthansa's daily flights, then none of this would've happened, and nobody would've had to be delayed. Nevertheless, the controller could've still granted ILS without much issue, it would've caused about 5 minutes of delay for the next flight.

That said, it's also not unreasonable to delay Lufthansa if the controller doesn't want to go through that effort. That's the only reasonable thing the controller did.

What isn't reasonable is to hold Lufthansa for 30 minutes without any information or contact, then tack on another 10 minutes two more times.

And what especially isn't reasonable is to force them to divert to Oakland and say things like "this conversation is over" because your ego is bruised.

The Norcal controller was way out of line and with what passes for SOP in the US we're gonna have our own Tenerife disaster soon enough.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So punish everyone because of Air Canada's fuck-up?

It's not punishment. The reason air travel is so safe is because every near-miss is root-caused and policies are put in place to prevent the same cause from resulting in a future accident.

I see. So this policy has been imposed on all class-B airports?

Also, it's not a "near-miss." It's a near-hit or near-disaster.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#304
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So punish everyone because of Air Canada's fuck-up?

There have been two major incidents around landing at SFO in the last decade, one involving fatalities. Prioritising safety by requesting to land using ILS after a 12 hour flight should not be seen as 'punishing' everyone else.

Except of course that everyone else is apparently able to handle it.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#305
post #283
post #40

The article seems to be misleading a little, because it was not 10 min in total. Lufthansa asked for ILS, was put on hold for 20 min, then ATC promised another 10 minutes, and then 14 more min passed and this is when the pilot got frustrated.

After that extra 4 minute delay, the pilot made a bluff because he had get-there-itis and the ATC controller called the bluff. Honestly I don't see what the controller did wrong here. If anything was unprofessional it was threatening to call an emergency and then arguing with ATC

How is it get-there-itis for a pilot to have to remind air traffic control that they have not provided an update they are supposed to have provided?

Honestly I'm a little confused by some of the sentiment around this situation. Air traffic control is a service that airlines pay for, not little gods that cannot be questioned.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#306

I can't find a source, but I thought I read somewhere that these policies came following the Asiana Flight 214 crash [1], during which a plane did a visual approach to SFO instead of ILS. My understanding was that there was a rule change requiring ILS approaches at night at SFO, then the airlines implemented policies duplicating the rules in their policies, but then the rules were revoked - still leaving airline poli…

This is very unlikely, because Asiana 214 crash happens in broad daylight at 11:28am, so it could not possibly trigger a rule forbidding visual approach at night.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#307
post #123
post #29

There's a follow up video to the one linked in the story that provides a lot more context missing in this piece. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zHxdn8oz20 Basically, SFO normally does VFR parallel approaches at night. Approach sequences these approaches miles beforehand, so there can be a chain of 10-20 aircraft all sequenced to land before responsibility is even transferred to SFO's tower. The incident happened du…

I think the FAA leadership is ultimately in the wrong for allowing their area of responsibility to deteriorate to the point where a controller and a pilot were put in this situation. They have a controller shortage that they are not doing enough to fix, and they have a troublesome airport with limited capacity to accommodate traffic, that they are being too bureaucratic about fixing. The controllers at SFO have used…

[flagged]

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#308
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been two major incidents around landing at SFO in the last decade, one involving fatalities. Prioritising safety by requesting to land using ILS after a 12 hour flight should not be seen as 'punishing' everyone else.

Except of course that everyone else is apparently able to handle it.

Right up until they can’t and a new rule gets written in blood. Given the depth perception issues of lights at night this seems like a sane request.

The bigger problems are overworked ATC (fixable) and the utter mess that is SFO design (seems unlikely to fix)

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#309
post #123
post #29

There's a follow up video to the one linked in the story that provides a lot more context missing in this piece. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zHxdn8oz20 Basically, SFO normally does VFR parallel approaches at night. Approach sequences these approaches miles beforehand, so there can be a chain of 10-20 aircraft all sequenced to land before responsibility is even transferred to SFO's tower. The incident happened du…

I think the FAA leadership is ultimately in the wrong for allowing their area of responsibility to deteriorate to the point where a controller and a pilot were put in this situation. They have a controller shortage that they are not doing enough to fix, and they have a troublesome airport with limited capacity to accommodate traffic, that they are being too bureaucratic about fixing. The controllers at SFO have used…

There are plenty of well-qualified applicants to be air traffic controllers, but they were born White or Asian and the Government is illegally reserving the jobs for favored ethnicities. https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/08/16/faa-should-rely-on-ab...

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#310
post #205

Regardless of what everyone is saying about the controller, I think the pilots behavior was disrespectful (to both ATC and to the lives of those on their plane) and unprofessional. You don’t get to cry wolf and cut the line because you were late and want preferential treatment. Go to Oakland as told, wait, or declare an actual emergency for emergency procedures to be run for you.

They just are not allowed follow policy designed to eventually kill people. Seems reasonable to me... And the ATC knew that plane with that policy was coming and were not prepared to create sufficient slot for safe landing instead of their unsafe one.
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