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Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

nature.com

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Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#111

Post by mewpmewp2 »

akomtu wrote: post #97
munch117 wrote: post #44

Appealing to quantum theory to defend free will does not make sense. If the quantum randomness is fundamental, and reality is stochastic at heart, that makes it non-deterministic, but it doesn't make it any less mechanical. It's in the name, after all: Quantum mechanics . If there is any guiding light to the randomness, any pattern to how the random choices come out, then it's not really random, is it? So, if you thi…

The universe can be deterministic without infringing on free will. The game of chess is deterministic, but free will is expressed in picking the moves.

The move you pick is also deterministic, which is coming from the state of your neurons and how they have got to that place from studying so far and then getting the current input of the board to go through several cases to reach the output.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#112

Post by mewpmewp2 »

hnthrowaway0328 wrote: post #102
digging wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, how are 1 and 2 different? If 2 simply refers to another layer of reality, don't we still have to figure out if it's deterministic or not? I suppose if it has its own completely different (or slightly different[1]) physics, we'd be starting over, but we'd still work our way back to the question of top-level determinism eventually). [1] Referring to cosmological natural selection as a theory of the "fine-tun…

I have been thinking about this. Definitely not a Physicist or even a Scientist, but how do we figure out the world that the simulation occurs? I think one lead we can have is that simulations are called simulations because they try to emulate the real world (the one simulations are running). By observing from inside the simulation what kind of input and reaction the "God" people has when we output something, we migh…

We probably need to develop AGI and more to be able to get closer to this.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#114

Post by [deleted] »

Animats wrote: post #94

No new info. From the article: "So how deterministic is the Universe? The answer will depend on the final theory that bridges the divide between quantum physics and relativity — and that remains a far-off prospect." Unless physics is totally noise-free, with zero randomness, there is indeterminism. There are so many chaotic processes that amplify randomness that any randomness at all will cause wide divergence in out…

[deleted]

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#115

Post by akomtu »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #111
akomtu wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The universe can be deterministic without infringing on free will. The game of chess is deterministic, but free will is expressed in picking the moves.

The move you pick is also deterministic, which is coming from the state of your neurons and how they have got to that place from studying so far and then getting the current input of the board to go through several cases to reach the output.

How do infusorias make choices? They don't even have brains.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#116

Post by lern_too_spel »

Animats wrote: post #94

No new info. From the article: "So how deterministic is the Universe? The answer will depend on the final theory that bridges the divide between quantum physics and relativity — and that remains a far-off prospect." Unless physics is totally noise-free, with zero randomness, there is indeterminism. There are so many chaotic processes that amplify randomness that any randomness at all will cause wide divergence in out…

If you can't control the noise, there is no free will. If you could control the noise, that would be measurable. You need both to be able to control the noise and to not have that be a direct consequence of another physical process in order to demonstrate free will.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#117

Post by broscillator »

fo76yo wrote: post #104
thefaux wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious is also a modern pejorative. It's pretty silly the way it's used given that extreme atheism is just as dogmatic as so called religious faith.

Disbelief in specific magical thinking of ancient people and belief in the magical thinking of ancient peoples are not all that similar. Though I see how they can look that way when you intentionally omit details about the claims of either side, as human discourse is reduced to Tweet size comments of negligible value.

Nowadays there's many believers of simulation theory, which is pretty much magical thinking.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#118

Post by broscillator »

pmontra wrote: post #88
broscillator wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're just describing human nature. We can look back and see how incomplete theories about the world led to horrible acts, or to averting our eyes from those acts because we thought it was justified, or because we thought there was no better way, or out of fear. Yet there's the prevalent sense of "this time we're getting it right".

People did horrible acts because they did want to do those acts to those other people. They picked a theory to justify them.

I don't know, there's many stories of modern soldiers doing terrible things, coming back to the civilized world and living horrible lives due to PTSD and not being able to parse what they did.

Are you suggesting every one of those soldiers for example, go out to war with the intent of killing children? Are you not open to the idea that the sense of normalcy can be shifted by the environment and context? Are you familiar with the milgram experiments?

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#119

Post by mensetmanusman »

digging wrote: post #71
mensetmanusman wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you imagine from your minds eye, that is a plane of some sort. If we understood exactly where or how this plane exists and for whom, we could arbitrarily place objects and ideas in this plane. Eg force someone to think of a red ball bouncing, or pull imagined objects forcefully out of the plane.

You're asking me to define the physical nature of thought? Of subjective experience? I can't. No one can. As I already said, though, that doesn't mean we should assume there's something metaphysical going on. When I think of a red ball neurons fire. We have no reason to believe there is anything else going on because we have no evidence one way or the other. The experience of thinking of a red ball is not evidence th…

If you can't touch the plane of thought, it isn't physical.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#120

Post by mannykannot »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #80
mannykannot wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely.

Luckily reality is nothing like this. Probably.

I suppose so - but then, if David Chalmers finds that it's conceivable that it is, it must be at least metaphysically possible.
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