Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

onemileatatime.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 413 posts

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#181

Post by nerdponx »

6stringmerc wrote: post #179

If you read Sabre annual statements going back 10 years it’s well know the FAA has been totally deprived of ability to remedy these issues. Frankly I don’t care since Delta dumped my Dad’s pension on me and my generation fuck that industry.

> well know the FAA has been totally deprived of ability to remedy these issues.

Other people are blaming the FAA for understaffing ATC and making it too hard to become a pilot, to the point of excluding otherwise-good would-be pilots.

I haven't before heard someone say that the FAA has been deprived of its ability to remedy these issues. Can you go into more detail on that?

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#182

Post by krisoft »

reso wrote: post #45

> Pilot: If we are not set up for base soon, we will have to declare a fuel emergency and that would really fuck up your sequence. > Controller: What is your divert field? > Pilot: Oakland > Controller: Ok you need vectors to Oakland? > Pilot: No, my company forbids visual separation at night, what is the problem here? > Controller: I can't have this conversation with you. You either divert to Oakland or you can cont…

> So this controller, knowing the plane was near a fuel emergency, gave the pilots the option to either crash their plane with 240 people on board, or to divert to Oakland.

Oh please. Fuel emergency is not when the plane falls out of the sky. It is calculated as when the airplane has just enough fuel to go to the alternate airport plus multiple landing attempts there plus navigational reserve in case you get lost on the way there. The plane was not there, but just thinking about maybe being there soon. You know what you do when your primary airport is unable to land (for any reason) you are approaching the fuel emergency line? You head to your alternate, that is what it is for. And it is not some unheard of thing, this is literally how you have to calculate how much fuel you have to put in the airplane. When you take off you have to have enough fuel to get to your primary destination, waste your time there, then head to your alternate, get a bit lost on the way, have a go around on your secondary and then still have enough juice for a second landing.

> This is tough for me to wrap my head around.

Because you are thinking “oh my, oh my, the controler was risking so many lives”. When what the controller heard is that they still had plenty of fuel to go to their alternate, so he suggested that they do so.

You know what crashes airplanes and kills people? It is not airplanes flying to their alternate. It is plan continuation bias, or in laymen terms “get-there-itis”. It is when pilots want to reach their destination so much that they make poor decisions. Such as for example delaying leaving for their alternate until it is too late.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#183

Post by nerdponx »

koyote wrote: post #132
ShadowBanThis01 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So punish everyone because of Air Canada's fuck-up?

There have been two major incidents around landing at SFO in the last decade, one involving fatalities. Prioritising safety by requesting to land using ILS after a 12 hour flight should not be seen as 'punishing' everyone else.

My understanding is that the Lufthansa crew could/should have requested ILS much sooner in order to give ATC time to figure it out.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#184

Post by InCityDreams »

lsh123 wrote: post #128

1/ Visual vs instrument approach. The main difference in this case is separation requirements that ATC must provide. Specifically, under IFR rules ATC mus provide 3 miles / 500 feet altitude separation minimum. For visual approaches, the separation is responsibility of the pilots and this enables parallel runway landings at SFO with much shorter intervals (there is a version of parallel landings with instrument appro…

>Last minute request is a surprise nobody needs.

Can/ should be applied to so many on-the-ground situations, too.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#185

Post by ww520 »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #61
Hansenq wrote: post #29

There's a follow up video to the one linked in the story that provides a lot more context missing in this piece. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zHxdn8oz20 Basically, SFO normally does VFR parallel approaches at night. Approach sequences these approaches miles beforehand, so there can be a chain of 10-20 aircraft all sequenced to land before responsibility is even transferred to SFO's tower. The incident happened du…

You're leaving out that they had a filed flight plan which for an international flight means controllers had many hours of notice as to when the flight was scheduled to arrive and that they would be looking for an ILS approach and it was the responsibility of approach controllers to have a spot in the pattern for them. They arrived in the area on time, and controllers had not allocated it a spot, which is why the pil…

The flight was delayed for several hours on takeoff and arrival, making their flight schedule less useful.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#186

Post by thsksbd »

reso wrote: post #45

> Pilot: If we are not set up for base soon, we will have to declare a fuel emergency and that would really fuck up your sequence. > Controller: What is your divert field? > Pilot: Oakland > Controller: Ok you need vectors to Oakland? > Pilot: No, my company forbids visual separation at night, what is the problem here? > Controller: I can't have this conversation with you. You either divert to Oakland or you can cont…

Either the plane has a fuel emergency, or it doesnt. If they had a fuel emergency, the pilot wouldnt have threatened to call one, they would have just done it.

Instead, by threatening to issue an emergency, the pilot reveled his cards - he was annoyed at the delay. The controller called the bluff and told him to fuck off and wait at the back of line or land in Oakland.

In the future, Lufthansa cam call ATC before hand if they want special treatment.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#187

Post by nradov »

sneeze-slayer wrote: post #169
nradov wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crew fatigue is not an ATC concern. Long haul flights like this carry relief pilots and have crew rest facilities so fatigue shouldn't be an issue in the first place. Controllers mostly work for the FAA. They have volume goals to meet, but they aren't accountable to airport or airline management for profit targets.

Crew fatigue is an ATC concern insofar as it contributes greatly to accidents. The controllers may have volume goals, but the ultimate goal is safety.

Crew fatigue really isn't an ATC concern. The FAA and airlines set rules for crew fatigue management. Flight plans are designed to keep the crew within limits even if they have a delay or diversion. It is simply not a controller's job to assess a flight crew's fatigue state, or second guess whether they need an alternate plan due to fatigue. Controllers aren't trained or qualified to do that.

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#188

Post by InCityDreams »

somewhereoutth wrote: post #170
pdx_flyer wrote: post #108

Overall it feels like a punitive measure against Lufthansa, rather than spending the time to get them an ILS clearance. For reference the flight is usually a 6:45p arrival but was very late on the evening in question.

6:45pm 18:45 18h45 A quarter to seven in the evening

0645pm (<- an abomination!) 1845. (no colon)

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#189

Post by hugh-avherald »

thrill wrote: post #31
riversflow wrote: post #8

I see this as a reap what you sow moment for Lufthasa. Why should ATC at a busy airport be so accommodating? Lufthasa is the one making this hard on everyone. I used to watch both these airports fairly frequently from Oyster bay regional park, they are both super busy with flights often lining up to the horizon.

"Why should ATC at a busy airport be so accommodating? Lufthasa is the one making this hard on everyone." It is literally ATC's job to facilitate the safe separation of aircraft. Note I said facilitate , not ensure, because ensuring safe separation and operation remains in the cockpit. When a pilot arrives at an airport and requests a specific approach, whether that reason is company policy or the limitations of weat…

ATC is responsible for separation of IFR aircraft in Class C and Class B airspace (which this almost certainly was).

Re: A Lufthansa A350's frustrating Oakland diversion

#190

Post by db48x »

JAlexoid wrote: post #51
dxf wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current top comment on the article explains the situation, and ATC are "not being assholes here": >NorCal had a new interpretation of ILS approaches come down several months ago that tied the controllers hands with regards to ILS approaches during visual conditions... The controllers were issued guidelines that if it’s busy and an aircraft is unable to comply with the approaches advertised on the atis or maintain…

The ATC should have just told them that, from the get go. They know exactly how many aircraft are headed their way, the pilot doesn't

The individual controller won’t know exactly how many airplanes are ahead of this one, and even if they did they can only estimate the delay. In this case the estimate they gave the plane turned out to be optimistic, because the planes ahead of them were taking longer to land than expected. Certainly saying “This conversation is over” would be rude in most circumstances, but it merely reflects the reality that a controller can only spend so much time talking to each crew. The crew already had all the information the controller could give them, and simply needed to make a decision rather than ask more questions.
Post reply on HN