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$750 a month, no questions asked, improved the lives of homeless people

latimes.com

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Re: $750 a month, no questions asked, improved the lives of homeless people

#61

Post by lukifer »

zrail wrote: post #9
paulpauper wrote: post #2

Of course it did. The question or debate is not if unconditional money helps, but if it's better than alternatives which may be cheaper, such as food credits. Even middle class people would benefit, like $750 to buy groceries. Inflation obviously will erode some of this new purchasing power.

The government is very good at giving people money. It's less good at adjudicating whether people require that money. Replacing every government assistance program with direct, unconditional cash transfers would almost certainly be cheaper than the bureaucracy that must be maintained to ensure only "deserving" people get assistance.

I broadly agree with you, I favor UBI for similar reasons, though I'd maybe frame it less as "very good vs. less good", vs. just acknowledging the enormous overhead costs of means-testing, to say nothing of the consequences when bureaucracy turns corrupt or Kafka-esque.

But devil's advocate: is there any reason the same outcome couldn't be accomplished with a negative income tax instead, leveraging a bureaucratic infrastructure which already exists and isn't going anywhere?

Re: $750 a month, no questions asked, improved the lives of homeless people

#62

Post by rahimnathwani »

mbgerring wrote: post #10
ciguy wrote: post #3

The headline as written should surprise no-one. Anyone receiving free money would probably have their life improved along some dimension, even if it just means they're not doing as many dangerous things to get money to buy more drugs. The implicit assumption seems to be that giving homeless people money to improve their lives is inherently a moral good. Unlike many homeless advocates, I don't think it is a given that…

Read the article, or read the recent UCSF study on homelessness[0]. The data suggest that mental illness and drug addiction are both symptoms of, or exacerbated by, homelessness, not causes of it. Please don’t argue with me about this here without citing the available data. 0. https://homelessness.ucsf.edu/our-impact/our-studies/califor...

The article is not based on a random sample of homeless people. If you read the article, and ideally the article linked within, you'll notice that both the control and treatment groups are from a set of people who have been able to maintain ongoing relationships with 'buddies', in person or on the phone.

The linked study claims to be based on a representative sample of homeless people, but the sampling approaches detailed on page 14 don't give me confidence that this is true. This part is particularly problematic: "This process continued with participants referring us to members of their communities who then referred us to others."

The final weighted sample might be representative based on some demographic criteria (e.g. ethnicity, age) but weighting it to achieve that doesn't magically make it representative of the overall homeless population in other respects.

Re: $750 a month, no questions asked, improved the lives of homeless people

#63

Post by amanaplanacanal »

ejb999 wrote: post #44
CodeyWhizzBang wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article: "Those who got the stipend were less likely to be unsheltered after six months and able to meet more of their basic needs than a control group that got no money, and half as likely as the control group to have an episode of being unsheltered." So, it seems like it helped get most people back on their feet and into a place where they can live independently without financial support.

did it actually get them back on their feet? i.e. to the point where they no longer needed the free money? or did it improve their lives by being able to purchase/consume $750 more of goods and services? Almost anyones life would be improved by a free $750/month, wether or not it makes any lasting change versus simply making them dependent on another government program is the real question.

I would think getting them off the street and into shelter is a win either way.

Re: $750 a month, no questions asked, improved the lives of homeless people

#64

Post by mrguyorama »

hehhehaha wrote: post #18
advael wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of productive hardworking people's money has been spent on propaganda whose sole intention is to ensure that people equate homeless people to "mentally ill drug addicts" rather than, say, "private equity real estate buyup refugees"

the people who say this never live in areas with homeless people

I can see their favorite hangout from my window right now. My girlfriend stands next to them at the bus stop she uses to get to her job working for the state helping homeless people.

How about GTFO of here with your presumptive bullshit.

Re: $750 a month, no questions asked, improved the lives of homeless people

#65

Post by Georgelemental »

nshkr wrote: post #31

As someone who is nearing 2,000 days of two stints of homelessness since 2017, I can offer feedback that such an amount would help to alleviate basic survival pressures. But, money will not solve any root cause issues. I've been unhoused and out of work for so long that any recovery back to a normal life has become exceedingly unlikely. I don't drink alcohol, I don't smoke, nor do I do illicit drugs nor prescriptions…

> still being criminally targeted, so I returned the laptop in like new condition to him a week later. (The side reports regarding systemic/criminal abuse against at-risk folks is a separate but related matter.)

Many "progressives" like to claim that punishing criminals is counterproductive, and the real solution to address crime is to fix the poverty, the "root cause". In reality, the opposite is true: crime is one of the major root causes that prevents honest people from improving their financial situation.

Re: $750 a month, no questions asked, improved the lives of homeless people

#66

Post by aziaziazi »

monsecchris wrote: post #4

If that’s the best they can say about $750 a month, it sounds like a terrible investment.

What other found would you recommend? Investing in our fellow humans has always been the best investment for any society, if not its sheer definition.

Re: $750 a month, no questions asked, improved the lives of homeless people

#67

Post by ejb999 »

pests wrote: post #38
CodeyWhizzBang wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article: "Those who got the stipend were less likely to be unsheltered after six months and able to meet more of their basic needs than a control group that got no money, and half as likely as the control group to have an episode of being unsheltered." So, it seems like it helped get most people back on their feet and into a place where they can live independently without financial support.

I had a bout or two of homelessness when I was younger. A $750 windfall (or equiv at the time period) would have definitely been a huge help at getting past those initial hurdles. Like with the old adage of the $20 boots that last a year vs the $150 boots that last a life time, yet you have a person with only $30 of disposable income at any one time. Poor guy's spent $600 on boots.

yea, no doubt if you are down on your luck someone handing you $750/month would improve your circumstances in the short run - but it sounds like perhaps you made changes in your life, such that you are no longer homeless - great - but would you, or anyone else not feeling the desperation of being hungry or unsheltered be more, or less, likely to try and improve your circumstances if you were getting a cash handout every month so the adverse affects weren't so bad?

Its a serious question - isn't there some benefit to society when people feel the pain of bad circumstances or decisions and then feel motivated to do something about it?

I am of the opinion that it does.

Re: $750 a month, no questions asked, improved the lives of homeless people

#68

Post by Georgelemental »

SeanAnderson wrote: post #53
datadrivenangel wrote: post #30

"About 2% of the total went to alcohol, cigarettes and drug expenses — the largest portion of which was cigarettes" I'm pretty sure that the average American spends more than 2% of their income on drugs.

Google says avg American makes ~$60k/yr and spends ~$600/yr on drinking. 2% of 60k is 1200. So they'd need to be spending as much on weed/cigs/hard drugs as they do on alcohol. I think it's close, but unlikely?

Median vs. mean likely makes a very large difference here.

Re: $750 a month, no questions asked, improved the lives of homeless people

#69

Post by brvsft »

datadrivenangel wrote: post #30

"About 2% of the total went to alcohol, cigarettes and drug expenses — the largest portion of which was cigarettes" I'm pretty sure that the average American spends more than 2% of their income on drugs.

> Homeless man we gave $750 to, how much did you spend on illicit drugs?

> > Oh uhhh... like $15.

> Okay, thanks. I am writing that down in my report. Now it is a fact.

Re: $750 a month, no questions asked, improved the lives of homeless people

#70

Post by bryanlarsen »

nshkr wrote: post #31

As someone who is nearing 2,000 days of two stints of homelessness since 2017, I can offer feedback that such an amount would help to alleviate basic survival pressures. But, money will not solve any root cause issues. I've been unhoused and out of work for so long that any recovery back to a normal life has become exceedingly unlikely. I don't drink alcohol, I don't smoke, nor do I do illicit drugs nor prescriptions…

> alleviate basic survival pressures.

With those taken care of, tackling the other problems becomes easier. Not easy, but easier.

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