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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#411

Post by hnthrowaway0328 »

danaris wrote: post #270
robertlagrant wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Constantly nagging your coworkers because you can't figure out how to do your job on your own is not. This is the problem: you've invented this scenario. There is a gaping middle ground between what people are describing and your stereotype of what they "must really mean"?

I think the problem is that too many of us have experienced this scenario, and had it described much in the way that the OP of the thread did. Too many people are too un-self-aware to recognize that their "just a 5-minute question" is being asked because they have not internalized the knowledge , rather than because it's genuinely something that they haven't had an opportunity to learn—too un-self-aware to recognize…

Yeah people do this simply don't recognize that they are annoying other people. From long time ago I have figured that there are two kinds of people in this world. One is more aware to him/herself and one if more aware to the outward world. Group 1 are usually tagging other people for their benefits (or, for the team's benefit as they so see it) while Group 2 do not do that very often.

Of course this has nothing to say with selfishness or else. It's simply that each Group project their own ideas to the outward world -- so people who like to outreach think other people like that too, while people who doesn't think the inverse. But taking a step back as a third party, we would realize that Group 2 is usually more harmed than benefited.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#412

Post by kridsdale1 »

danaris wrote: post #259
mratsim wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying programmers' time is not expensive enough?

When the execs of tech companies are still able to make several orders of magnitude more money than any of the programmers they employ, and their companies are able to make profits in the trillions, with a t , no; programmers' time is not priced appropriately for the amount of productivity we enable .

Thankfully there is nothing at all but entrenched competition preventing you from leaving and becoming one of those execs on your own.

This very website is here to help you achieve this dream.

The delta in your compensation to theirs is the effective price that you are willing to pay to not bother with that hassle.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#413

Post by nevinera »

While I don't really _disagree_ with any of this, I want to raise a point from the other direction - it's possible (and for some of us, absolutely necessary) to build software such that holding a large "structure of thoughts and possibilities" in your head is not required.

I find myself largely incapable of doing so, open-plan office or not, and have compensated by adopting development approaches that break problems down in consistent enough ways (into small enough pieces) that the structures I have to pick up and put down are never all that complex. Which is good, because they fall out of my head just all the time. ADHD, a very poor memory for detail, and a role that has me responsible for juggling many tasks concurrently would _destroy_ my productivity if this article were universal truth.

Don't get me wrong, I _hate_ working in an open-plan office. But the impact it has on my output is not because the interruptions affect my flow, it's because the constant social contact stresses the heck out of me >.<

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#414

Post by kridsdale1 »

orangepurple wrote: post #190
ath3nd wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would win: - literally 100s of publications showing how disruptive and destructive to focus it is to be working in an open office work and how much distractions it brings: https://theconversation.com/returning-to-the-workplace-heres... https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/eve... https:…

> A bunch of extroverts who just can't wait to tell you what they did over the weekend and a bunch of C-level dudes who can't believe work can be done if they PERSONALLY can't see you at your desk working. The sight of people in an open office plan is merely an expensive therapy session for these guys

Lord knows many of them hate their families.

Workaholism is a self soothe for those who should consider divorce.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#415

Post by contrarian1234 »

yousif_123123 wrote: post #407

Just want to add that I only became (at least in my opinion) a good programmer by sitting next to a very good and passionate one that I was able to question from time to time and may have interrupted his work some days. I also probably helped him brainstorm ideas with me and debugging, since he would just say what's on his mind while doing it, and I'd do the same, and sometimes this kind of ping pong debugging/brains…

I think the interruptions in a group setting have huge disastrous effects as nobody really ever gets into a good flow state.

I'm sure it's useful for training and mentorship, but that's frankly not your employer's problem these days. People switch jobs every year, and if you train up staff only their next company is really going to reap the benefits. If learning on the job raises retention then it's only marginal. If anything it makes people "worth more" and they more easily find the next gig that comes with a pay bump

You can easily skill up by:

- watching conference videos on YouTube

- during code review

- go on your lang subreddit or forums and read about how other people skin their cats

What you want is basically unstructured interruption based code review ~ which is nice for the junior but horrible for productivity over all

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#416

Post by ducharmdev »

rpmisms wrote: post #328
IKantRead wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recent experience at a fairly young startup has shown me that open office culture has also started to breed a very different type of programmer. People will often be pairing nearly all day long, any claim that you need a moment to focus and think about a problem is met with perplexity, every idea should be shipped to prod asap, while tests exist the idea of performing basic QA/manual testing on your own work is only…

I was raised by the focused type of programmer, and modern startup culture is horrifying to me (and him). I have left that world and now am solo engineer in a non-profit where I'm responsible for a list of results, not a pile of Jira tickets someone made up to look busy.

That sounds like my ideal job. The longer I've been a developer, the more I've come to dislike work that doesn't address problems faced by end-users/the org.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#417

Post by no_wizard »

ike2792 wrote: post #365
IKantRead wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recent experience at a fairly young startup has shown me that open office culture has also started to breed a very different type of programmer. People will often be pairing nearly all day long, any claim that you need a moment to focus and think about a problem is met with perplexity, every idea should be shipped to prod asap, while tests exist the idea of performing basic QA/manual testing on your own work is only…

As a former programmer and now EM, I agree with this. Open offices definitely felt a lot more productive since everyone was always frantically working and communicating. I think people actually have gotten more done since WFH started, though.

>felt a lot more productive

This is the crux. There are people who want this feeling, at all costs seemingly, despite no data backing up the assumption that returning to the office makes a materially positive difference and produces positive outcomes.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#418

Post by mikrl »

mariusor wrote: post #194
robertlagrant wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. This is very one-sided. If you can unblock someone now so they don't spend 3 hours searching through the local intranet for some information, then that makes your team faster. There's a balance to be had, of course, but your team's overall delivery is what's important. > I view it…

> If you can unblock someone now so they don't spend 3 hours searching through the local intranet for some information, then that makes your team faster. I'll be blunt here. I have very little interest in how the team I'm part of performs in general. Trying to make one person feel guilty that someone else can't do independent study is very toxic in my opinion, and I usually remove myself from under management that ap…

>I have very little interest in how the team I'm part of performs in general.

Your job security is extremely dependent on the health of your company and team. If the structures which provide your employment contract start failing, and you do nothing about it, don’t be surprised if you get bitten.

I don’t expect appeals to empathy will work based on your posts, and I hate “we are a big family” smoke and mirrors too, but let’s be pragmatic here. The fact that your job even exists is predicated on a social and legal contract to provide your expertise for the benefit of a multi-person entity.

Team health does also depend on nudging those who can’t RTFM to do so… you can be an asshole, but you need to be a prosocial one as far as the company is concerned.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#419

Post by kridsdale1 »

macNchz wrote: post #219
gorgoiler wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open plan worked for me when there was a very clear contract between every stakeholder. Firstly, everyone had free, good quality, sound blocking headphones. Not just free as in standard equipment on your first day free. There were buckets of the things lying around and if you needed a new set you just grabbed some, no questions asked. VC funded opulence, yay! Secondly, there was an understanding amongst everyone on t…

I’ve seen this work tolerably well in an open space that’s entirely engineers or similar roles, assuming there are enough conference rooms for people to peel off to for meetings and calls, and you can establish the culture of the main room having a library-esque hush. As soon as people start having multi party conversations in the main space because the conference rooms are booked 100% of the time, or people whose jo…

ACCOUNTS PAYABLE THIS IS WILHELMINA SPEAKING

JUST A MOMENT

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#420

Post by GoToRO »

yousif_123123 wrote: post #407

Just want to add that I only became (at least in my opinion) a good programmer by sitting next to a very good and passionate one that I was able to question from time to time and may have interrupted his work some days. I also probably helped him brainstorm ideas with me and debugging, since he would just say what's on his mind while doing it, and I'd do the same, and sometimes this kind of ping pong debugging/brains…

You got more, maybe the company got more, the senior got less: two jobs, only one pay. Now with remote work, companies really have to carve out budget and time to train people. They don't like that.
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