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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#121

Post by Muromec »

ath3nd wrote: post #115
esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

Who would win: - literally 100s of publications showing how disruptive and destructive to focus it is to be working in an open office work and how much distractions it brings: https://theconversation.com/returning-to-the-workplace-heres... https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/eve... https:…

“I can’t back it up with data, I just know I’m right “ of course

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#122

Post by voisin »

throw0101c wrote: post #119
esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

> Open plan might work great for some types of work […] I'm curious to know: why types are, or people consider to be, good for open plan? Generally, office type jobs tends to be one where people need to use their brains to concentrate on something, and open plans tend to be able to create / not block distractions, they would be antithetical to being able to concentrate.

Trading floors would be one.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#123

Post by quickthrower2 »

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #108
ath3nd wrote: post #37

People like you are the reason I personally don't want to be in an office. > asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. Basically like having a toddler around. Sorry for the negative take here but how it's written it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. Or I migh…

> you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus Surely there must be ways to balance these things? When you want to ask someone a question it shouldn’t be too hard to infer whether it’s a good time to do that now or you should wait (if it is, well it’s exactly a very hard skill to learn if you put in some effort)

You need it to be a good time for all 6 people

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#124

Post by cevn »

ath3nd wrote: post #78
cauch wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe the OP should write down all their questions in a structured format, and then schedule a meetings with 1 person helping them onboard, ... Let me guess: that 1 person will of course not be you, right? Because if it is you, I bet you will complain even more. Also, it's ridiculous to pretend that all questions require deep dive at length. Some do, and, yes, I agree we should do that for those. But what about…

> Let me guess: that 1 person will of course not be you, right? Because if it is you, I bet you will complain even more. I don't mind it being me, as a matter of fact, it's often me, as I am in a more senior position and have a lot of historic context. However, a lot of time has been spent on documenting most things, so often I am just going over the docs with the new onboarder, which is okay, as long as it's done in…

Everybody thinks their question is simple and quick, then it takes 30 minutes of time at minimum. I dunno why you are getting so much push back, must be a bunch of managers. Developers need to be left alone.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#125

Post by achenet »

nox100 wrote: post #18

Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had). Having people around me working on the same project is invaluable for me for * asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. * running ideas by others. This doesn't happen on c…

I think the key part of that is working on the same thing.

I work in a large company, and team is spread out over multiple cities.

We actually will often to group video calls to have a similar thing to what you describe - being able to ask a quick question, run ideas by other, etc.

However, going to the office I'm just with people who are working on different things, often doing calls which I find distracting...

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#126

Post by Towaway69 »

throw0101c wrote: post #119
esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

> Open plan might work great for some types of work […] I'm curious to know: why types are, or people consider to be, good for open plan? Generally, office type jobs tends to be one where people need to use their brains to concentrate on something, and open plans tend to be able to create / not block distractions, they would be antithetical to being able to concentrate.

Marketing? Where ideas and concepts need a lot of input and discussion. Basically anything that is very human and not zero or one.

Customer support via telephone support where not one agent knows everything. I.e., you tell customer to hold the line and then ask some other agent for a solution.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#127

Post by quickthrower2 »

cauch wrote: post #59
ath3nd wrote: post #37

People like you are the reason I personally don't want to be in an office. > asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. Basically like having a toddler around. Sorry for the negative take here but how it's written it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. Or I migh…

[flagged]

It is not like you asked a waiter for another beer as they walked back to the kitchen. They may have 1kb of level 1 cache they need to purge from their brain to help fix your eslint file.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#128

Post by cauch »

mathgeek wrote: post #111
cauch wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If one requires interrupting 6 other people to maintain flow Where is this "6" coming from? Again: 1) You may be incapable of doing work when someone walks next to you, but this is not the case of a lot of people. It's like driving and then going like: 'Gee, when these cars are putting their blinking lights on and it is distracting me, they should all quickly park before I arrive'. 2) My flow is fine, thank you ver…

The “6” is coming from the original comment in the thread.

there are 6 people in the room, but as I said, it does not mean that the 6 persons are all distracted. (by the way, the initial comment was implying that the question is coming from one of the 6 persons in the room, so at worst, it's 5 persons distracted)

the question can also be useful for one other person in the room, so instead of being distracted, the person has been helped.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#129

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

nox100 wrote: post #18

Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had). Having people around me working on the same project is invaluable for me for * asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. * running ideas by others. This doesn't happen on c…

When I was junior I shared an office with a senior. I was constantly asking him questions. He pretty much knew everything, I'm not kidding, this guy was amazing. So this arrangement worked out really well for me, but not sure how much he liked having his work interrupted so much. Could be that between the two of us, the benefits averaged out to zero.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#130

Post by cauch »

Buttons840 wrote: post #109
cauch wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If one requires interrupting 6 other people to maintain flow Where is this "6" coming from? Again: 1) You may be incapable of doing work when someone walks next to you, but this is not the case of a lot of people. It's like driving and then going like: 'Gee, when these cars are putting their blinking lights on and it is distracting me, they should all quickly park before I arrive'. 2) My flow is fine, thank you ver…

If Alice wants to focus on her work uninterrupted, but Bob wants to interrupt and ask a question, what should happen?

That's exactly the question.

My solution is: Bob should try to ask with moderation, and Bob and Alice should work together in a situation where Bob does not need to distract Alice. If Bob needs to distract Alice, then Alice just needs to live with it. If Bob has questions but does not need to distract Alice, then Bob should not ask the question and just needs to live with it.

What confuse me is that some people here just answer: obviously Alice is right and Bob is wrong, all the time except exceptional cases.

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