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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#51

Post by matsemann »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #42
nox100 wrote: post #18

Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had). Having people around me working on the same project is invaluable for me for * asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. * running ideas by others. This doesn't happen on c…

[flagged]

I never understand this. Why being so focused on work, to the detriment of building some relationships with the people you work with? Is this a HN/spectrum thing? Or capitalism-simping where people aspire to be robot-workers with no humanity? Why not enjoy your time at work? After all, you're spending 8 hours there a day, and see those people almost as much as your spouse, and probably more than your friends.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#52

Post by hmaxwell »

I work at a 30 person company in a partitioned office designed for four people, including the CEO, a graphic designer, and a secretary. My role involves focused programming tasks, which are frequently disrupted by the office dynamics.

When the CEO is away, the graphic designer and secretary frequently engage in loud, casual conversations, discussing everything from personal matters to home decor, like curtain colors. They also have a habit of yelling over the office partitions, adding to the disruption. Despite using noise-cancelling headphones, these distractions, including both the conversations and the yelling, consistently hinder my concentration.

Interestingly, the secretary has expressed concern about the perceived level of activity in the office, especially when the CEO is present. The secretary has mentioned to both me and the graphic designer that there might not be enough typing noises, suggesting a worry that the CEO might not think everyone is working hard. This concern about appearances adds another layer to the already challenging office environment.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#53

Post by cauch »

olivermuty wrote: post #23
nox100 wrote: post #18

Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had). Having people around me working on the same project is invaluable for me for * asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. * running ideas by others. This doesn't happen on c…

> asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. All your other points are fine. People are motivated by a mix of external and internal triggers, and you are clearly skewed to the external side. The thing I quoted is however why anyone geared towards the internal side of things will HATE to have to go to the office while you are there. Programming requires delib…

Isn't what you say contradictory?

You are saying that devs need to stay "in the flow". But when you are in the flow and suddenly you have something that blocks you because you have a simple question, the best way to stay in the flow is to ask the question and get the answer immediately. If I have to quit my flow, go on slack, ask on slack, wait 10 minutes, then re-explain because the other person did not get it, then re-wait, ... my flow is ruined.

What you are saying is, at the end of the day, when caricaturing a little bit, that you want your flow to be maintained, but you are happy to destroy the flow of others.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#54

Post by eesmith »

> These two types of work were first identified, to my knowledge, by the programmer and essayist Paul Graham.

The identification of flow state in programming was known well before Graham. Steve McConnell's Rapid Development (1996), https://archive.org/details/rapiddevelopment00mcco/page/506/... , has

"Flow time. During the analysis and design stages, software development is an ephemeral, conceptual activity. Like any conceptual activity, the quality of the work is dependent on the worker's ability to sustain a "flow state" — a relaxed state of total immersion in a problem that facilitates understanding of it and the generation of solutions for it (DeMarco and Lister 1987). Converting brain waves to computer software is a delicate process, and developers work best during the hours they spend in this state of effortless concentration. Developers require 15 minutes or more to enter a state of flow, which can then last many hours, until fatigue or interruption terminates it. If developers are interrupted every 11 minutes, they will likely never enter a flow state and will therefore be unlikely to ever reach their highest levels of productivity."

DeMarco and Lister 1987 is "Peopleware: Productive projects and teams". I can't find a first edition but you can read the relevant part of the second edition at https://archive.org/details/peoplewareproduc00dema_0/page/62... .

As I recall, in one of McConnell's books was a chart showing relative performance effectiveness of closed offices vs cubicles vs open floor plans, which got progressively worse. I can't now find that chart though.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#55

Post by serf »

hmaxwell wrote: post #52

I work at a 30 person company in a partitioned office designed for four people, including the CEO, a graphic designer, and a secretary. My role involves focused programming tasks, which are frequently disrupted by the office dynamics. When the CEO is away, the graphic designer and secretary frequently engage in loud, casual conversations, discussing everything from personal matters to home decor, like curtain colors.…

>This concern about appearances adds another layer to the already challenging office environment.

I sympathize, but I haven't yet had the pleasure of working with other people without the existence of those kind of friction layers.

At my age I just assume now that it's just part of the human condition -- but maybe it's just me.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#56

Post by ath3nd »

spike021 wrote: post #40
ath3nd wrote: post #37

People like you are the reason I personally don't want to be in an office. > asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. Basically like having a toddler around. Sorry for the negative take here but how it's written it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. Or I migh…

>Basically like having a toddler around. Unnecessarily condescending response to the OP, to be honest.

Fair take.

I am not trying to be condescending here, but it's hard to view this behavior as anything but overly disruptive.

https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/

Instead of "just a quick question", the OP could prepare a list of their questions, and ask them all at the allocated time. A scheduled deep dive into the questions the OP has might even be more productive than multiple unscheduled disruptions of others' time.

And in an open office, even if you ask only a single person something, others might hear it too, despite the question not being intended to them.

We are talking about multiple people's brain cycles being dragged out their focus space, we are talking multiple conversations happening next to you, we are talking about click clack of people's keyboards next to you, and people moving going to take a coffee in your peripheral vision. It's a nightmare.

https://theconversation.com/returning-to-the-workplace-heres...

https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#57

Post by rmbyrro »

Apocryphon wrote: post #33

Not to create too much of a political tangent, but the lack of private offices, or rather the ubiquitous mandatory nature of open offices , and its universal unpopularity with non-managers, is evidence imo that tech could use a union or professional association or guild or something . Oh sure you can talk about high comp and career mobility. But where does all of the vaunted labor power of software engineers go when…

In my opinion, you might have an overly optimistic view of unions. And you might also be ignoring the downsides of unions.

I get that unions were/are necessary for things like mining workers or so, but SWE is quite different. I'd expect a union to be net-negative in our sector.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#58

Post by lawgimenez »

throwaway64787 wrote: post #11
lawgimenez wrote: post #9

When I graduated from college, never have I envisioned once that my optimal workspace is just a laptop, working from home, while spending time with fam, and get some hobbies done at the same time.

>while spending time with fam, and get some hobbies done at the same time Getting paid to waste time not doing your job is considered work now?

I should mention that listening to heavy metal music very loud is my hobby. This is impossible in a work setting.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#59

Post by cauch »

ath3nd wrote: post #37

People like you are the reason I personally don't want to be in an office. > asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. Basically like having a toddler around. Sorry for the negative take here but how it's written it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. Or I migh…

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#60

Post by cauch »

ath3nd wrote: post #56
spike021 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Basically like having a toddler around. Unnecessarily condescending response to the OP, to be honest.

Fair take. I am not trying to be condescending here, but it's hard to view this behavior as anything but overly disruptive. https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ Instead of "just a quick question", the OP could prepare a list of their questions, and ask them all at the allocated time. A scheduled deep dive into the questions the OP has might even be more productive than multiple unscheduled disrupt…

So what you are asking is that OP destroy their own "deep work" a lot just that you don't get a mild distraction in yours.

> And in an open office, even if you ask only a single person something, others might hear it too, despite the question not being intended to them.

I guess I'm special, because when I'm in a "deep work", I just don't hear people around me. I know it's not the case of everyone, some of my colleagues just put noise-suppression headphones, which is yet another easy way to solve your problem without forcing others to cater to your needs.

Of course, open space can be bad, and there are numerous examples of crazy open space situations. But what OP was describing is clearly not to the extend of what you are talking then.

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