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We are in a Bubble

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Re: We are in a Bubble

#91

Amazing how a post with this title gets to the top of Hacker News in a matter of minutes EVERY TIME

You have a bunch of people either in the startup scene or very passionate about getting into it. These people don't want to hear about how their livelihood/passion may spontaneously combust one day. Then you have people who aren't involved and are (probably) jealous at least on some subconscious level, and people who legitimately believe the bubble exists. This makes for some heated (and usually nonconstructive) debates.

Re: We are in a Bubble

#92
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we get "job creation start-ups", aka bubble businesses. The only winning move is to break the rules of the game by simply redistributing wealth/income to people who don't have it to spend. Well, that or to build a luxury rich people will pay for.

Isn't rich people investing in bubble businesses effectively wealth redistribution?

If the investment comes in the form of equity and is used to pay salaries, yes. It's the stupidest form of wealth redistribution.

Re: We are in a Bubble

#93

Funny, they've been saying this ever since the last one.

We were talking about it at least as far back as 2006, for sure. Source: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116679843912957776-fF... At what point is growth in an industry no longer considered a bubble?

My point exactly.

Re: We are in a Bubble

#94
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should discontinue doubting that. Valuations are done using every available metric (users, revenue, etc) and some metrics that have to be "triangulated". Valuation experts select the one they think is most relevant or mix several metrics to arrive at a value. Some acquirers view different metrics as important depending on what they need. Some companies need top line growth to keep their multiple so they buy less…

I've been doing some thinking on this and I definitely secede the point that _nobody_ does valuations like this. My problem with the article is that it makes it sound as though _most_ valuations are done like this and that is why there is a tech bubble.

Most valuations are done like that. It is called the comparable method.

Essentially all valuations have 3 components: . 1) Comparable Method This is the method you are talking about and it is ALWAYS used. In some cases, with companies with revenue and net income analysts will value things like Dividend/Price, or Price/Earnings.

In cases where small changes in the business model can yield huge changes in Earnings for example, analysts may use other metrics to get a more 'accurate' measure of profitability. In cases of internet companies it may be users, or may be 'content share' or some other metric, and they compare it to public companies like google or facebook.

The downside of course is that no one knows for sure what the value of each 'user' is for the new company. But the upside is it gives the analyst another way to think about a tough problem.

2) Discount Method - First the analyst estimates future cash flow over a specified period using assumptions about how the company will perform. He then 'discounts it', divides the future cash flow by a discount rate, and arrives at a value.

The downside of this method is that the assumptions are very hard to come up with.

3) Net asset value method - taking the companies hard assets and valuing them. (I'm not sure if anyone is doing this, but I would guess that the cost of hiring awesome, top rate engineers is probably modeled and incorporated in the a NAV when making talent acquisitions.

Now, with instagram you might be saying, wait, they don't have a metric that gives them a $1B value. That is the entire reason they didn't IPO rather than sell. Because facebook thought that their were synergies in the deal, whether they be future earned cash flows, or a reduction in negative future cash flows.

Zuck may not have done a model, but he very well may have said to himself...

The buyside (stock buyers at mutual funds and hedge funds) all are asking me about competition, and how I'm going to grow this business over the next 3 quarters (what matters), and he says, for 1% of my valuation, I can probably get a 10% higher stock price at exit.

This is also why Yahoo sued Facebook a month ago as well. They figured the lawsuit would cause investors to balk at the IPO which would cause Zuck to settle it quickly for more than Yahoo could get otherwise.

In the long run, valuations are complex, and so is business. Most programmers/hackers etc. look at the Wall Street Journal and think that everyone is crazy and that there is a bubble. There may be a bubble, but everyone isn't crazy.

Re: We are in a Bubble

#95
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "operating budget" I assume you mean revenues. For reference, the US spent $2.73 trillion in 2007 and $2.9 trillion in 2008. It plans on spending $3.8 trillion in 2012 and about the same in 2013. When you say "opened up the throttle a good amount" that amount is in the vicinity of ~35%. (These numbers are not adjusted for inflation. Sorry.)

Right, that's the revenue they have to play with, and yep, that's what I meant by opening up the throttle :-)

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Re: We are in a Bubble

#96
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "operating budget" I assume you mean revenues. For reference, the US spent $2.73 trillion in 2007 and $2.9 trillion in 2008. It plans on spending $3.8 trillion in 2012 and about the same in 2013. When you say "opened up the throttle a good amount" that amount is in the vicinity of ~35%. (These numbers are not adjusted for inflation. Sorry.)

Right, that's the revenue they have to play with, and yep, that's what I meant by opening up the throttle :-)

‎"The political expression of altruism is collectivism or statism, which holds that man’s life and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, the nation—and that the state may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good."

Ayn Rand

Re: We are in a Bubble

#97
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, that's the revenue they have to play with, and yep, that's what I meant by opening up the throttle :-)

‎"The political expression of altruism is collectivism or statism, which holds that man’s life and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, the nation—and that the state may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good." Ayn Rand

I don't see how that applies here? That communism doesn't work well or is inherently unfair doesn't generalize into the idea that the less communistic a society is, the better. In general, I think Rand is overly reductionistic and shouldn't constitute a significant portion of anyone's worldview.

Re: We are in a Bubble

#98

This bubble will hurt the smaller startups by no-name people, people that invested everything in an idea that in a non-bubble environment would be laughed out of the room, but with companies like YC around (not that this is their fault) that are harping on about the value of ideas and people it's growing. There are people here on HN daily that post links to their blog posts that have put all their savings into their…

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