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How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

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Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#391

Post by passwordoops »

vlovich123 wrote: post #224
OnlyMortal wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I met French speaking Quebecois in Paris. They were complaining the Parisians didn’t understand them. They weren’t enamoured to France.

All my teachers in French throughout middle school and university (Canada) were France French. In college, my first TA was Quebecois French & it took me a few classes before I actually started understanding what she was saying. It’s a very difficult accent and I don’t think it’s a snobbery thing - just requires extended exposure. By comparison Quebecois seem to more easily understand France French whether it’s becaus…

I agree, but no one is being offended by a frustrating but understandable "sorry I didn't catch you, can you please repeat?". It's very specific, very condescending fun which I've witnessed. Being Italian-Canadian anglophone from Montreal my French accent is very unique - mix of American and Italian and it usually sparks good conversation because they want to know where did this come from? My friends who are Quebecois, on the other hand, are subjected to all manner of mean-spirited ridicule, from the innocuous "aww you're so cute too down like that!" to "you must miss your moose blood when you visit"

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#392

Post by nicoco »

n0n0n4t0r wrote: post #361
nicbou wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not surprised. I'm from Quebec. I am more comfortable speaking English with anyone than I am speaking French around French people. They just can't get over the accent, like I'm some sort of curiosity at the zoo. There are so many YouTube videos of French people mocking us. It's not curiosity but a distinctly French superiority complex. My friends who learned French had similar struggles in France versus elsewhere…

Now that you say it: some decades ago there was a racist tendency in France where people where having fun of others accent. They where having fun of the southern marseillais accent, but also of the northern ch'ti accent, they also had extra fun of African or Quebec's accent indeed. I, as a child, did imitated those accent for fun. I now regret it, bit it's still in the roots of a lot of people. I sometimes fear that…

Without denying at all that racism exists, I believe it is also possible to imitate accents outside racism. I'm from the south of France, and my accent kicks in when I speak with elderly family members that themselves always have the southern accent when they speak. Despite that, sometimes I make jokes imitating the southern accent, does that make me a "self-racist"?

Clarification in case it's needed: I absolutely agree that making fun of someone's accent when they come to you is a best inappropriate, and more often than not utter bigotry. But I'm concerned about criminalising humour. This might not be a widely-shared idea (especially in the anglosaxon world?), but I even believe that racist jokes can be tools against racism, decredibilising racism and not actually oppressing the minority in question. Of course, again, context matters.

(clarification #2: I don't believe "cancel culture" is a thing, if you do racist jokes in the public sphere and someone calls you out for saying something racist, I don't believe anyone has been "cancelled")

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#393

Post by acjohnson55 »

twixfel wrote: post #323
unethical_ban wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take a guess. It's been a while since I've looked for ally at another language. But English has fewer cases of verbs, and a more rigid sentence structure. We have more special cases of past tense verbs and weird pronunciation, but I think it's easier to duck up and still make sense in English? Maybe.

English famously has relatively complex verb conjugation. What we don't have are cases (only a few words decline). German has cases for example, but much simpler verb conjugation.

By complex, I assume you mean highly irregular?

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#395

Post by palata »

nicbou wrote: post #326
n0n0n4t0r wrote: post #318

Hello, I'm a french (non Parisian) reader, and was very surprised by the comments I read. More precisely, the near 100% percent agreement on "french are despising non native speakers, especially the Parisians". I really don't feel it this way and am so surprised. I don't have more to add since I really never thought about this. Speaking of English: I work in an international company since one year and am I the proces…

I'm not surprised. I'm from Quebec. I am more comfortable speaking English with anyone than I am speaking French around French people. They just can't get over the accent, like I'm some sort of curiosity at the zoo. There are so many YouTube videos of French people mocking us. It's not curiosity but a distinctly French superiority complex. My friends who learned French had similar struggles in France versus elsewhere…

I am not French but it is my mothertongue. In my country we just absolutely love the Quebecois accent, it's sounds really really nice and friendly :-).

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#396

Post by acjohnson55 »

Dalewyn wrote: post #207
adev_ wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For most people it's their 3rd or 4th or 5th language, and they were always so full of joy and happiness than I was trying my best. I think this is currently pretty typical in any language. In my experience, Non-native speakers are much more resilient to strong accents and broken grammar. Probably because they passed themselves by this step. I worked in a research laboratory with >100 nationalities: It was extremel…

>"Globish English" Yes yes. I English speak very easy. I English hear too very easy. Easy understand. Can talk each other good just simple words. English very good. *Ahem* Basically, the built-in error correction functionality in English is bloody phenomenal . Literally anyone with a passing understanding and skill in English can use it to communicate effectively. This feature is seldom seen in most other languages l…

English is mostly unique in its vocabulary size. We have redundant words for nearly every concept. We often shift registers by using different vocab--Latin-origin words for more formal/respectable registers. The ability to speak it in broken fashion and be understood is not unique.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#397

Post by okal »

Exoristos wrote: post #276
okal wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is misleading in the extreme. The Kanaky separatists boycotted the referendum. Something I find equally interesting is how apologists for European colonialism are perfectly content to claim 60 years is a long time (with the implication that it no longer matters), when systems were designed to explicitly keep the former colonies subservient, often including co-opting, or cultivating a corrupt elite. At what point…

Why would they do that, except as a stunt?

The referendum was based on a set calendar. The French central government refused to have it rescheduled. The Kanaky nationalists were opposed to having it run in the thick of COVID. The trajectory was in their favour, based on previous referendum outcomes, so I'm inclined to believe they boycotted as a matter of principle. In the end, the people who voted were mostly settlers from Metropolitan France, whose representatives are now actively working to roll back Kanaky autonomy. This information is very easy to find for anyone who cares, so I'm (genuinely) curious why you'd ask in what seems like a casually dismissive tone.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#398

Post by arkh »

coldtea wrote: post #184
dudul wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French people always get criticized for not understanding foreigners' broken French. It is not out of malice. It is because it actually is very hard to understand broken French. A lot of very different words sound similar. A very simple grammatical mistake can completely change the meaning of a sentence. And yeah, it's probably kind of the same in English, but French is not the linga franca English is today (see what…

> French people always get criticized for not understanding foreigners' broken French. It is not out of malice. It is because it actually is very hard to understand broken French. Is it that difficult? I can understand broken French just fine as a non native speaker. For French people it looks as if it's impossible, but I don't buy it. > People weren't correcting you to mock you. They wanted to understand and probabl…

> Judging from how indifferent and unhelpful retail workers, waiters, and such were

Did you start your interaction with a "Bonjour" at least? "Customer is king" is not something in France, so you want to be polite with everyone.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#399

Post by musha68k »

michaelscott wrote: post #369
n0n0n4t0r wrote: post #318

Hello, I'm a french (non Parisian) reader, and was very surprised by the comments I read. More precisely, the near 100% percent agreement on "french are despising non native speakers, especially the Parisians". I really don't feel it this way and am so surprised. I don't have more to add since I really never thought about this. Speaking of English: I work in an international company since one year and am I the proces…

Fwiw my own experience in France, even in Paris, was mixed. A number of people refused to speak French with me (although my French was terrible, it's true), while others were either highly encouraging and complimentary, or were content to at least try and speak with me. I've never encountered anyone overtly rude. I realised the "refusing to understand" attitude in French is not out of malice, but simply because the s…

I think it has more to do with the success of the language standardization effort.

AFAIK being very serious about that was a declared goal historically; nation states in general not that old etc, etc..

So you have lots of people that went through a purposefully rigid process in education and of course with that through greater society. At the end there is maybe not much room / tolerance in handling deviations from the norm?

Despite all of that I’ve also seen this changing though as France / the world has become less insular (learning more foreign languages, etc).

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#400

Post by [deleted] »

bsaul wrote: post #128
cassepipe wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that's one of the worst thing in French : The gap between written and spoken is so much bigger than say spanish which I think makes it hard for foreigners.

i'd say the problem is mainly the inability of young generation to be able to write and speak proper french. Speaking slang is fun and everybody's been doing it forever. However being only able to speak slang is a problem.

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