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0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

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Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#91

Post by enasterosophes »

goopthink wrote: post #66
deadbabe wrote: post #34

The solution to the Ship of Theseus is obviously that there is no Ship of Theseus. All things are just events in time, long moments where matter is organized into some structure for a while and then breaks apart again, and we assign names to those events. Some happen so quick that naming them is pointless and others are so slow to dissipate that a name becomes useful.

“The Silent Transformations” by RANÇOIS JULLIEN tackles this head on by highlighting western thought’s roots in ancient Greek concepts of determined forms of being and Aristotilian logic, compared against the fluidity of non-Western thought and emphasis of change over time from ancient Chinese philosophy. To put it glibly, the Ship of Theseus problem goes away when you stop thinking of identity as discrete points and…

To regard Western and non-Western thought as distinct is to again indulge the fallacy of determined forms and non-fluidity. Going back at least to the time of Alexander the Great before 300BC, there were was constant cross-polination of ideas between Indian and Mediterranean cultures, so that Ashoka used Greek Buddhists to spread the dhamma, and there is some suspicion that Nagarjuna was influenced by Pyrrhonism.

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#92

Post by deadbabe »

Too wrote: post #86
deadbabe wrote: post #34

The solution to the Ship of Theseus is obviously that there is no Ship of Theseus. All things are just events in time, long moments where matter is organized into some structure for a while and then breaks apart again, and we assign names to those events. Some happen so quick that naming them is pointless and others are so slow to dissipate that a name becomes useful.

Wow, someone took yesterday’s article about event sourcing way too seriously. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38664412

I missed that one but generally I think event sourcing is pretty great too :)

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#93

Post by pkulak »

toasterlovin wrote: post #90
deadbabe wrote: post #34

The solution to the Ship of Theseus is obviously that there is no Ship of Theseus. All things are just events in time, long moments where matter is organized into some structure for a while and then breaks apart again, and we assign names to those events. Some happen so quick that naming them is pointless and others are so slow to dissipate that a name becomes useful.

The solution to the Ship of Theseus is that telos, not atomic physics, is how the vernacular We identify and organize the contents of our existence. I am the same me as the me of 10 years ago, even though we have zero cells in common, because we are iterations of an ongoing physical phenomena the same root cause: my conception. And so it is with Theseus and his Ship.

You still have lots of cells in common. But point still taken.

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#94

Post by trevyn »

philwelch wrote: post #80
winwang wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hilariously sounds like a possible "defense" in court after being caught stealing said ship. Was it really Theseus's ship?

Here’s a real mystery for you. You’re a worker at a dry dock where you are maintaining a ship. You periodically remove perfectly good parts of the ship and send them away, replacing them with new parts and making falsified records claiming spurious damage that needed to be repaired. At a second facility, the pieces from the original ship are reassembled. Did you steal the ship, or has it been sitting there in drydock…

Insufficiently specified. Clearly depends on the details of the repair contract.

What?! You mean Theseus didn’t have a contract?!

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#95

Post by yMEyUyNE1 »

pkulak wrote: post #93
toasterlovin wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to the Ship of Theseus is that telos, not atomic physics, is how the vernacular We identify and organize the contents of our existence. I am the same me as the me of 10 years ago, even though we have zero cells in common, because we are iterations of an ongoing physical phenomena the same root cause: my conception. And so it is with Theseus and his Ship.

You still have lots of cells in common. But point still taken.

I think they are refering to the phenomenon of "Each and every cell of our body is replaced after a period of 7-10 years which means we renew."

https://www.questdiagnostics.com/patients/blog/articles/do-m...

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#96

Post by jamiek88 »

tiffanyg wrote: post #75
ARandomerDude wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that assertion is true, I can’t even respond to the person who typed it. The “event” that typed the comment has passed and “you” are already gone. The organization of matter is constantly changing. If Heraclitus was right it’s hard to even say which organization of particles counts as Heraclitus.

I believe the solution was given by the great philosopher Pratchett*: "Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only a…

Where to start with reading Sir Terry? I’ve been intimidated in the past. Do you nave to read the others to understand this one?

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#97

Post by _8j50 »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #88
_8j50 wrote: post #76

Just like the article, the ship of Theseus changes in its constituency but not in its identity. Am I a different person because almost none of my cells at the time of my birth remain in me? Of course not. And the wiki article is the same article. Whether something can be identified as a specific thing is a matter of social convention. A transformation of something is not a new thing but exactly the former: a transorm…

Yes! This is the discussion starter we've been waiting for. Then you're admitting that there's something non-physical that defines the identity of the physical thing, is it possible to argue against that? Or is identity itself meaningless? But it cannot be because without identity there can be no understanding of the universe. Thus, the non-physical is a requirement of the physical. One cannot exist without the other…

> Then you're admitting that there's something non-physical that defines the identity of the physical thing

It's not a question of being physical but that of independently describable.

> Or is identity itself meaningless

Identity is how we frame and contextualize for the purpose of thought and communication. For the purpose of thought I might consider the modified ship the same as the one in the initial state but if the law requires you to rename and re-register as new when you modify so much of a ship then for legal purposes I will start identifying it as a new ship but the people that use the ship will probably consider it that same old ship because for the purpose of thought the independently describable object has not changed.

It is not identity that has no meaning but that physical objects themselves have no meaning to us unless framed in an independently describable context (i.e.: as separate from all other things in the context).

For a computer program, does the letter 'A' exist? It does if the program can decode a byte as such, but does its inability to describe the bits and bytes that way mean the letter 'A' does not exist? Maybe it is 0x41? Identity has meaning but only to those who are able to describe that identity and reason about the context.

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#99

Post by Lastodon »

jamiek88 wrote: post #96
tiffanyg wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the solution was given by the great philosopher Pratchett*: "Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only a…

Where to start with reading Sir Terry? I’ve been intimidated in the past. Do you nave to read the others to understand this one?

Google discworld reading order, pick a storyline that is similar to genres you like (the guard books are copper fiction, the Lipwig books are inverted heist novels, the Rincewind books are classic fantasy by way of Oxford University culture, etc.)
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