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How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

nytimes.com

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Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#261

Post by danjac »

Naijoko wrote: post #238
Dalewyn wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Globish English" Yes yes. I English speak very easy. I English hear too very easy. Easy understand. Can talk each other good just simple words. English very good. *Ahem* Basically, the built-in error correction functionality in English is bloody phenomenal . Literally anyone with a passing understanding and skill in English can use it to communicate effectively. This feature is seldom seen in most other languages l…

many languages have this feature. For example Russian or German. You can put in the words, with most words missing, in any order and somehow someone will get it. France cant do this. Why... I dont know why. Maybe because the are more desciptive.

Russian is a heavily inflected language, so the order of words matters less. For example, in English you can say "the cat ate the bird", but if you reversed "cat" and "bird" this would be a different sentence entirely. In Russian "cat" would have the nominative case and "bird" accusative, so you can swap the words around and it would mean the same, though perhaps with different emphasis.

French doesn't do this; as with English only the pronouns have vestigial accusative, and in any case most inflections are lost in speech because French drops consonants from the end of words. So you have to depend on strict word order to preserve meaning.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#262

Post by alephnerd »

greatgib wrote: post #103

[flagged]

> I think that this article is diffusing "propaganda" maybe even without realizing (I hope).

You know RFI is owned by the French government right?

If there is propaganda, it's ways to make France look more hospitable.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#263

Post by kergonath »

dataflow wrote: post #61
dudul wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French people always get criticized for not understanding foreigners' broken French. It is not out of malice. It is because it actually is very hard to understand broken French. A lot of very different words sound similar. A very simple grammatical mistake can completely change the meaning of a sentence. And yeah, it's probably kind of the same in English, but French is not the linga franca English is today (see what…

> French people always get criticized for not understanding foreigners' broken French The main criticism I've heard is kind of the opposite - that they dislike foreigners not trying to speak French, and just starting communication in English. If both of these are true then I guess that puts foreigners in a tough place where they're damned if they try and damned if they don't?

> The main criticism I've heard is kind of the opposite - that they dislike foreigners not trying to speak French, and just starting communication in English.

That’s the case most often, and that’s what most of my friends who lived in Paris say. There’s a (not entirely justified) pervasive feeling that French people can’t speak English properly and they tend to be self-conscious about it.

> If both of these are true then I guess that puts foreigners in a tough place where they're damned if they try and damned if they don't?

It’s different people. Most of them are forgiving, if clumsy, and a few of them are pricks. Just like in any country. A fair few don’t care and you can live perfectly well near Paris for years speaking only a handful of French words.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#264

Post by kergonath »

Swizec wrote: post #88
dataflow wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> French people always get criticized for not understanding foreigners' broken French The main criticism I've heard is kind of the opposite - that they dislike foreigners not trying to speak French, and just starting communication in English. If both of these are true then I guess that puts foreigners in a tough place where they're damned if they try and damned if they don't?

I’ve had extraordinary luck with broken French in France. If you start in French and do your best, a lot of people suddenly speak fluent English. Especially in metro areas. But the experience does not compare to traveling with my partner who speaks fluent zero-accent French. Paris turns into a different much nicer city when you pair with a native speaker. That said, you’ll never get the level of service you see in US…

> That said, you’ll never get the level of service you see in USA. The French (Europe in general) just don’t care that much about customer UX. You either do it their way or you can leave.

I hate service in American restaurants. I don’t want to be babysit and have someone always behind me. I can fill my glass myself just fine, and I am able to call if I need something. I just want to be left alone to enjoy the meal and company without being watched. That said, Paris tends to be a caricature of a different kind, sure.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#265

Post by alternative_a »

sjfjsjdjwvwvc wrote: post #200
jimmaswell wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe as a whole has always come off as unpleasant to visit as an American, from what I've read online such as this thread. In no American city I've been to do you have to be so vigilant for pickpockets as you apparently do in European cities, and virtually no one in America will complain about your accent or grammar. We have free water at restaurants, and the staff won't treat you like a mooch for asking about it;…

You have been piled on a lot already in this thread but let me add my 2 cents: - you don’t have to be particularly careful about pickpockets anywhere in Europe, at least not more than anywhere else in the world. - you always get free tapwater in restaurants if you ask for it anywhere in Europe, also most waiters are also generally pleasant (of course there can be unpleasant people anywhere) - not sure about the tax t…

This is all true. You also can ask for ice with your coke. This will endear you with the wait staff as they can not resist snickering and muttering “American ..”

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#266

Post by eternauta3k »

tux3 wrote: post #47
nequo wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reverse? Do you mind sharing a couple examples? I’m not a French speaker and this sounds intriguing to me.

French has "verlan", which is when you swap some of the syllables of a word to give it a slang or "street" vibe. The world "verlan" itself is verlan for "envers" ("in reverse")

Cute, same thing in Buenos Aires Spanish.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#267

Post by kergonath »

kashunstva wrote: post #205
dudul wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French people always get criticized for not understanding foreigners' broken French. It is not out of malice. It is because it actually is very hard to understand broken French. A lot of very different words sound similar. A very simple grammatical mistake can completely change the meaning of a sentence. And yeah, it's probably kind of the same in English, but French is not the linga franca English is today (see what…

> It is because it actually is very hard to understand broken French. Is there any evidence that French has some unique qualities that render it unusually difficult to understand when not spoken by a someone fluent in the language? I’m reasonably competent in French and if there is such a feature, I don’t see it.

> Is there any evidence that French has some unique qualities that render it unusually difficult to understand when not spoken by a someone fluent in the language?

Usually it’s just English exceptionalism and the centuries-old rivalry between both countries. Don’t expect much objectivity from either side. From Americans, it’s usually ignorance of a foreign language. Spanish-speaking Americans don’t tend to say this sort of thing.

> I’m reasonably competent in French and if there is such a feature, I don’t see it.

There is none.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#268

Post by alternative_a »

bubblematrix wrote: post #241
csomar wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually been to Europe? Paris/London has a few pickpockets problem but nothing come close to the violence in the states. And you can’t win when it comes to food. Most US food is garbage unless you are paying top dollars.

My last trip to Paris was 1 year ago and it was pretty bad compared to NYC, Los Angeles, and San Francisco for the average tourist - especially at night.

As an almost life long New Yorker it pains me, truly, to read this. People used to fear this city and that kept the “average tourist” (which includes super lovely people like my parents btw) well away from the Big Apple. Oh how I miss those days. Now any average tourist feels perfectly safe in our city and no longer fears us locals. This is not good. It’s almost like being colonized, like what happened to those poor poor Barceloni. One day they had a beautiful city (though it did smell like dog shit everywhere) and before you know it they lost it to the tourists. I fear this has already happened to Manhattan, though over here in Brooklyn we do our bit to instill the necessary respect for locals and their customs for the tourists. (Yes they come over here and look at graffiti on the wall to the great amusement of us locals.)

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#269

Post by kergonath »

gerdesj wrote: post #157
ekianjo wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The normand invasion of England and political control for 400 years changed the English language for sure. The medieval English and the modern English are completely different. Medieval French and modern French, not so much.

I'm not sure what 400 years of Norman political control really means. There was an invasion of England in 1066 by William the Bastard, Duke of Normandy, which ended up with King William I of England. Subsequent monarchs of England/bits of France were no longer Normans per se. At least one variety of a French language at the time was introduced, wholesale, and became the court language of England. Latin of course rema…

> There was an invasion of England in 1066 by William the Bastard, Duke of Normandy, which ended up with King William I of England. Subsequent monarchs of England/bits of France were no longer Normans per se. At least one variety of a French language at the time was introduced, wholesale, and became the court language of England.

There was more than that. For a while, England was a backwater of the Angevin empire and kings of England were native French speakers for quite a long time.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#270

Post by ic_fly2 »

France has strong support for French (language) music.

The end result is that a lot of it is pretty decent. (Sure there is complete trash, they don’t have better tastes than others)

Some rappers write books that win literature prizes. Plenty of French language hip hop and rap has deep lyrics that go way beyond what most English language stuff achieves.

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