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0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

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Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#61

Post by prometheus76 »

labster wrote: post #41
Geisterde wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all accepted santa was real at one point right? Like, we grew up and realized hes a fantasy character. I think its perfectly fine to keep the original article, you can discuss whether the history is true or not later in the analysis. Big boys and big girls can accept that some myths are worthy thought experiments implicitly, it doesnt need this language, only to gatekeep the knowledge behind some kind of intellect…

Wait, what do you mean Santa is a fantasy character? Are you implying the big jolly red man isn’t real?

The identity of Santa transcends one body, but his identity manifests in many bodies. If someone is dressed as Santa and you wave and he says "ho ho ho!" you say "hi Santa!" But if you wave and he says "leave me alone. My wife left me last night," then it is suddenly clear you are no longer talking to Santa, but instead to a guy dressed as Santa, but who is having a bad day. Just because Santa's identity transcends one body doesn't mean he isn't real. You can interact with Santa, and know when you aren't interacting with Santa.

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#62

Post by mankyd »

prometheus76 wrote: post #58
deadbabe wrote: post #34

The solution to the Ship of Theseus is obviously that there is no Ship of Theseus. All things are just events in time, long moments where matter is organized into some structure for a while and then breaks apart again, and we assign names to those events. Some happen so quick that naming them is pointless and others are so slow to dissipate that a name becomes useful.

So are you saying that an identity cannot persist beyond the original physical elements that composed the identity?

The opposite. It's identity is really an "event" called the ship of Theseus. The effect continues to happen regardless of the specific matter.

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#63

Post by ARandomerDude »

deadbabe wrote: post #34

The solution to the Ship of Theseus is obviously that there is no Ship of Theseus. All things are just events in time, long moments where matter is organized into some structure for a while and then breaks apart again, and we assign names to those events. Some happen so quick that naming them is pointless and others are so slow to dissipate that a name becomes useful.

If that assertion is true, I can’t even respond to the person who typed it. The “event” that typed the comment has passed and “you” are already gone.

The organization of matter is constantly changing. If Heraclitus was right it’s hard to even say which organization of particles counts as Heraclitus.

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#65

Post by ClassyJacket »

maxbond wrote: post #43
stevenwoo wrote: post #13

I read The Wager earlier this year and it’s implied that every active wooden ship eventually is a ship of Theseus, for a trip from England to the passage around South America at that time many of the ships had to be repaired along the way, though they didn’t start with all new ships.

Are they repairing every board though or is it mostly the same boards in vulnerable areas getting replaced?

Define "the same board"...

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#66

Post by goopthink »

deadbabe wrote: post #34

The solution to the Ship of Theseus is obviously that there is no Ship of Theseus. All things are just events in time, long moments where matter is organized into some structure for a while and then breaks apart again, and we assign names to those events. Some happen so quick that naming them is pointless and others are so slow to dissipate that a name becomes useful.

“The Silent Transformations” by RANÇOIS JULLIEN tackles this head on by highlighting western thought’s roots in ancient Greek concepts of determined forms of being and Aristotilian logic, compared against the fluidity of non-Western thought and emphasis of change over time from ancient Chinese philosophy.

To put it glibly, the Ship of Theseus problem goes away when you stop thinking of identity as discrete points and instead as a process of change and movement through time. I.e., We are not the same people we were as children, and that’s okay. Or Emerson: “I contain multitudes.”

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#67

Post by elif »

deadbabe wrote: post #34

The solution to the Ship of Theseus is obviously that there is no Ship of Theseus. All things are just events in time, long moments where matter is organized into some structure for a while and then breaks apart again, and we assign names to those events. Some happen so quick that naming them is pointless and others are so slow to dissipate that a name becomes useful.

That is simply a one sided reduction of the ship of Theseus dilemma. In it's reduction, it necessarily negates the essence of ontological meaning, including the meaning of the statement you are making.

The dilemma is not in search of a solution but instead it offers meaning exactly because of it's lack of resolution.

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#68

Post by maxbond »

ClassyJacket wrote: post #65
maxbond wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they repairing every board though or is it mostly the same boards in vulnerable areas getting replaced?

Define "the same board"...

I think what I was imagining there being a schematic which called for a board to be hammered into place at a particular location, and some of these being more exposed to wear than others (as well as being of different strengths because of the dimensions of the board, and if I'm not mistaken different parts of a ship are constructed with different kinds of wood).

If we're feeling inclined to Greek philosophy, perhaps this is the Platonic form of the boards being replaced.

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#69

Post by makeitdouble »

mankyd wrote: post #62
prometheus76 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you saying that an identity cannot persist beyond the original physical elements that composed the identity?

The opposite. It's identity is really an "event" called the ship of Theseus. The effect continues to happen regardless of the specific matter.

That's fine to define a start event, but where does it end ? Is the universe the ship of Theseus at some point ?

Re: 0% of the phrases of the original Wikipedia "Ship of Theseus" article remain

#70

Post by chmod775 »

tripdout wrote: post #6
duskwuff wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the first version was pretty rough. It was only a couple of sentences long, and included a bizarre, irrelevant tangent ("a modern embellishment"). It's no surprise that every part of that has long since been replaced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Permalink/1154003 TBH, the same is probably true of most Wikipedia articles which were created early in the site's history. It took a while for editors to settl…

I feel like the overall description from 2003 better explains the concept than the current article: > According to an ancient Greek legend, Theseus had a warship that was preserved as a historical relic by the Athenians. Some of its boards rotted and had to be replaced. After many, many years, many such replacements occurred. Eventually, none of the original boards were present. Philosophers could then debate whether…

The modern version communicates the full premise in the first sentence, whereas the old version takes much longer to get to the point.

While the story of the ship illustrates the problem nicely, it is not as important, as the ship is merely a vehicle to get the point across - and Theseus too, presumably.

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