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The Divorce Colony (2015)

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Re: The Divorce Colony (2015)

#21

It would be interesting to read a charitable case for why divorce was prohibited . We see it written up as women being forbidden from owning land, or perhaps without a marriage, not being recognized as full people with the freedom to own it. It probably had some rational basis beyond cruelty and was likely about incentives, like reducing the reward for spouses to kill each other for inheritances. Maybe it was the epi…

I assume that in Europe and America the prohibition of divorce comes from Christianity, deriving from Matthew 19.

Re: The Divorce Colony (2015)

#22
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Please don't complain about tangential annoyances—e.g. article or website formats, name collisions, or back-button breakage. They're too common to be interesting. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

In this case it was actively distracting and impacting my ability to read the text.

The point of the guideline is not that these things aren't distracting or annoying but that they're not interesting to talk about, especially not every time someone feels inconvenienced by them.

Re: The Divorce Colony (2015)

#23
post #21

It would be interesting to read a charitable case for why divorce was prohibited . We see it written up as women being forbidden from owning land, or perhaps without a marriage, not being recognized as full people with the freedom to own it. It probably had some rational basis beyond cruelty and was likely about incentives, like reducing the reward for spouses to kill each other for inheritances. Maybe it was the epi…

I assume that in Europe and America the prohibition of divorce comes from Christianity, deriving from Matthew 19.

This is certainly where the modern religious justification comes from, but it was commonly prohibited except in extreme cases or for adultery among many peoples before Christianity: the early Roman Republic/kingdom, among ancient Germans, etc. Indeed one imagines that the social practices of the early Germanic peoples may have had more influence on 19th century norms than religion- theory is one thing, practice another. In a parallel universe without Christianity we might expect a similar social norm!

Re: The Divorce Colony (2015)

#24

It would be interesting to read a charitable case for why divorce was prohibited . We see it written up as women being forbidden from owning land, or perhaps without a marriage, not being recognized as full people with the freedom to own it. It probably had some rational basis beyond cruelty and was likely about incentives, like reducing the reward for spouses to kill each other for inheritances. Maybe it was the epi…

There's a straightforward line of reasoning for the benefit of any children if they exist: divorce is highly disruptive for the child, and should not be available except under extreme circumstances for much the same reason why people are forced to pay child support today. Likewise, one could imagine forcing marriage upon people for the benefit of any children born out of wedlock.

In fact, society could much more readily support children financially than it can provide a missing parent, so if anything it's a bit strange that we allow divorce or absent parents but require financial support.

Re: The Divorce Colony (2015)

#25

What an amazing read, about something I had no idea about. It's such a different tale than what we deal with today, but the same thread. A group of people angry and upset at how other people run their lives, and more than willing to use the state to suppress and deny the others. Today it's lgbtqia and pro-choice and non-white-people that the state is being coerced into hounding & frustrating, but it's the same wringi…

Having a completely different take on who the state is involved with hounding, I still agree completely. Whatever my disagreements with your views are, I regard the prospect of using political means to get my way to be abhorrent.

Re: The Divorce Colony (2015)

#26

It would be interesting to read a charitable case for why divorce was prohibited . We see it written up as women being forbidden from owning land, or perhaps without a marriage, not being recognized as full people with the freedom to own it. It probably had some rational basis beyond cruelty and was likely about incentives, like reducing the reward for spouses to kill each other for inheritances. Maybe it was the epi…

There's a straightforward line of reasoning for the benefit of any children if they exist: divorce is highly disruptive for the child, and should not be available except under extreme circumstances for much the same reason why people are forced to pay child support today. Likewise, one could imagine forcing marriage upon people for the benefit of any children born out of wedlock. In fact, society could much more read…

This effect on a child aggregates up too. The result is a tribe/society issue of unguided kids who don't benefit from the stability, specialization, opportunity, and generational progress provided by a nuclear family. That said, however, if we use catholic countries as an example baseline for any implied evolutionary effect of forbidding divorce - they don't do too well against protestant nations, and particularly vs. anglicanism which was founded on divorce. British colonies vs. catholic Spanish and Portuguese colonies fair much better. Maybe marriage is a net positive, and the remarriage from divorce helps humans iterate faster.

Re: The Divorce Colony (2015)

#27

It would be interesting to read a charitable case for why divorce was prohibited . We see it written up as women being forbidden from owning land, or perhaps without a marriage, not being recognized as full people with the freedom to own it. It probably had some rational basis beyond cruelty and was likely about incentives, like reducing the reward for spouses to kill each other for inheritances. Maybe it was the epi…

Steel man one: controlling the social costs of mate competition. Struggling to find a wife? Start an affair with a married woman, persuade her to divorce her husband and marry you. If that is permitted then the happy husband has to guard against it all the time. That is a cost. By the exchange doesn't create more women; the gain to one man is exactly cancelled by the loss to the other. Socially it is net loss. Complications: the gain to the woman on finding a more suitable husband, the loss to the woman when the second man tires of her and divorces her and her first husband doesn't want her back. The distress of the children of the first marriage.

Exercises for the reader: (1)Gender swap the previous paragraph. (2)Add in the effects of alimony, child custody, and child support that we are willing to talk about. (3)Add in the dark side of child custody and support with women making false allegation to win custody and the money that comes with it.

Steel man two: Some people are so attractive that they have a choice of who to marry. Homo Economicus studies divorce law, and the effect of divorce incentives on mate choice is immediate. Normal people are influenced indirectly, by the marriages and divorces of parents, aunts, uncles, the parents of their friends, movies and novels about family life. Perhaps the eventual effect that filters through to normal people is the same as what Homo Economicus calculates so promptly, but with a lag of twenty to forty years.

Does a woman chose a dangerously sexy man, or a boring good provider? She doesn't ask the questions: what if he beats me? Trades me in for a younger model? Dies in a fight or motorbike accident? Bores me to despair? But all those scenarios play out in the romantic fiction she reads, and she knows which are the fantasy ones, and which are the ones that play out under real life divorce law.

If divorce is forbidden, people make safe choices. If divorce is permitted people take risks, and society gets to pick up the pieces. The usual argument in favour of divorce to end violent, unhappy marriages treats the rate of violent, unhappy marriages as exogenous. A rival argument is that the rate of violent, unhappy marriages is endogenous. The causal chain runs: permit divorce, more risky marriages, more violently unhappy marriages. Which leads to a tricky calculation: more bad marriages, but divorce ends a bad marriage, so many of the bad marriages as less bad because briefer. (complication: some of the safe-choice marriages turn out to be pretty bloody miserable)

That is not the correct calculation. There is inter-generational transmission of trauma; the children of bad marriages that break down, grow up to have bad marriages that break down. That adds another twenty to forty years of lag on the effects of changes to divorce laws filtering through.

Back in 1700 the considerations above would have been a little scandalous, because that way of thinking is atheistic. Say it out loud and people would think that you had read too much Thomas Hobbes. But they had a curious notion of providence, with faith in God being bolstered by the sense that He had handed down moral laws that worked out for the best. I think that they had their own ways of combining Theism and social-realism.

Re: The Divorce Colony (2015)

#28

It would be interesting to read a charitable case for why divorce was prohibited . We see it written up as women being forbidden from owning land, or perhaps without a marriage, not being recognized as full people with the freedom to own it. It probably had some rational basis beyond cruelty and was likely about incentives, like reducing the reward for spouses to kill each other for inheritances. Maybe it was the epi…

There's a straightforward line of reasoning for the benefit of any children if they exist: divorce is highly disruptive for the child, and should not be available except under extreme circumstances for much the same reason why people are forced to pay child support today. Likewise, one could imagine forcing marriage upon people for the benefit of any children born out of wedlock. In fact, society could much more read…

An unamicable divorce can certainly be bad, but don't under-estimate how bad it is for a child to grow up in a marriage where both partners hate each other, but can't leave.

Forcing marriage seems like a terrible way to achieve the same thing.

Re: The Divorce Colony (2015)

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a straightforward line of reasoning for the benefit of any children if they exist: divorce is highly disruptive for the child, and should not be available except under extreme circumstances for much the same reason why people are forced to pay child support today. Likewise, one could imagine forcing marriage upon people for the benefit of any children born out of wedlock. In fact, society could much more read…

An unamicable divorce can certainly be bad, but don't under-estimate how bad it is for a child to grow up in a marriage where both partners hate each other, but can't leave. Forcing marriage seems like a terrible way to achieve the same thing.

It's actually amicable divorces which would most obviously be banned under such a justification. You're basically signaling to the child "I didn't hate your other parent, wasn't being abused, etc. I'm just choosing to abandon my family (you)".

Similar reasoning could justify adultery being a crime against your children.

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