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The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

charliechaplin.com

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Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#241

Post by lewhoo »

arrosenberg wrote: post #235
lewhoo wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of exceptions to recall here. People who thought of themselves as great but were diminished by others for being fools are easy to find in history of science in particular. I'd say if you invoke hubris or ego then you yourself are reacting emotionally - then who is right and who is wrong would probably only rely on the outcome of my endeavors (successful or not).

> I'd say if you invoke hubris or ego then you yourself are reacting emotionally - then who is right and who is wrong would probably only rely on the outcome of my endeavors (successful or not). Ah yes - "I am rubber, you are glue". Given that this is a hypothetical, and I have no stake in the outcome, I think it is reasonable to conclude I am not being emotional about this. > People who thought of themselves as grea…

> Given that this is a hypothetical, and I have no stake in the outcome, I think it is reasonable to conclude I am not being emotional about this.

And why would you assume that ? If you hand no stake then I'd say it's far less likely to go for descriptions like hubris or ego. I have no stake in chess and I wouldn't call Kasparov anything like that but people more invested in chess certainly do because it's closer to heart for them.

> And how many claimed to be great that are not in the history books?

We don't know, because they're not in the books. But seriously, how exactly does this matter if you are just searching for logical support ?

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#242

Post by J_Shelby_J »

zozbot234 wrote: post #225
qingcharles wrote: post #44

I always liked this version with music added: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLKo I remember sharing a jail cell with a 19-year-old Mexican kid once and we were talking about the guards being assholes and he said "they're like machine men"; and I said "with machine minds and machine hearts?" and he was like "YES! You know it?!" -- it was a good moment, we spent the next few days trying to remember the whole s…

[flagged]

Taika Waititas most loved movie is literally him playing hitler.

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#243

Post by arrosenberg »

lewhoo wrote: post #241
arrosenberg wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say if you invoke hubris or ego then you yourself are reacting emotionally - then who is right and who is wrong would probably only rely on the outcome of my endeavors (successful or not). Ah yes - "I am rubber, you are glue". Given that this is a hypothetical, and I have no stake in the outcome, I think it is reasonable to conclude I am not being emotional about this. > People who thought of themselves as grea…

> Given that this is a hypothetical, and I have no stake in the outcome, I think it is reasonable to conclude I am not being emotional about this. And why would you assume that ? If you hand no stake then I'd say it's far less likely to go for descriptions like hubris or ego. I have no stake in chess and I wouldn't call Kasparov anything like that but people more invested in chess certainly do because it's closer to…

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that N people can claim to be great "if only X wasn't in my way". In reality, an infinitesimally small number of people will be judged as great by history, and half of those will be largely by accident, many will not realize it, and some will only achieve it post-mortem.

Therefore, logically, if someone claims to be great, they are mostly likely riding high on hubris and ego. It's statistically the most likely outcome for anyone claiming greatness.

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#244

Post by Hammershaft »

zozbot234 wrote: post #225
qingcharles wrote: post #44

I always liked this version with music added: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLKo I remember sharing a jail cell with a 19-year-old Mexican kid once and we were talking about the guards being assholes and he said "they're like machine men"; and I said "with machine minds and machine hearts?" and he was like "YES! You know it?!" -- it was a good moment, we spent the next few days trying to remember the whole s…

[flagged]

I think this take is really hyperbolic, there have been movies in the last decade that ambiguously portray hitler in different contexts. Are there even any examples of movies that have failed to release because of 'internet rage mobs'

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#245

Post by bee_rider »

pmcp wrote: post #218
bee_rider wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fascist sells the idea that our feelings of weakness can be hardened into solid, rational, scientific, truths. This almost seems like… a horrible promise to a wounded man, that he could be a machine-man, and that’s the best he could ever be, and that will give him strength. Maybe the fascist must appeal to mechanical-ism because his philosophy is fundamentally emotion-driven. The transparent, meritocratic…

The film was released in 1940, I feel you are understating it’s timelyness.

I certainly I didn’t mean to!

It is a doubly-interesting speech because he was giving a counterpoint to the idea that men should sell out their hearts and become cruel machines when it was still up in the air, whether or not that Faustian bargain would pay dividends (it didn’t work out so great for them).

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#247

Post by lewhoo »

arrosenberg wrote: post #243
lewhoo wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that this is a hypothetical, and I have no stake in the outcome, I think it is reasonable to conclude I am not being emotional about this. And why would you assume that ? If you hand no stake then I'd say it's far less likely to go for descriptions like hubris or ego. I have no stake in chess and I wouldn't call Kasparov anything like that but people more invested in chess certainly do because it's closer to…

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that N people can claim to be great "if only X wasn't in my way". In reality, an infinitesimally small number of people will be judged as great by history, and half of those will be largely by accident, many will not realize it, and some will only achieve it post-mortem. Therefore, logically , if someone claims to be great, they are mostly likely riding high on hubris and e…

Because that wasn't your point. You claimed it's hubris and ego because greatness is in the eye of the third-party beholder. Now you argue it is necessary that greatness must be unlikely, which is of course true but changes nothing. History of science, maybe history of progress is the history of (at that moment) unlikeliness prevailing.

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#248

Post by gwern »

mukara wrote: post #234

It is said that Franklin D. Roosevelt encouraged Chaplin to make the The Great Dictator. Indeed, around the time the film was made, the two men shared political views on a lot of things. When Churchill and FDR saw a pre-release private screening of the film, they liked it. (Incidentally, Chamberlain had vowed to ban it in England for fear of angering the actual dictator.) FDR even invited Chaplin to read this very sp…

> There’s a recent good book review summarizing this: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/11/20/charlie-chapli...

It's also a good example of how not to defend someone like Charlie Chaplin. I knew next to nothing about Chaplin other than I had greatly enjoyed some of his movies and he was the Little Tramp, but I come out the other end of this attempted defense convinced he was a fellow-traveler Communist and probably not a very good person aside from the communism part; and I wish I had never read that review, because there was no need for me to know any of that.

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#249

Post by cogman10 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #225
qingcharles wrote: post #44

I always liked this version with music added: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLKo I remember sharing a jail cell with a 19-year-old Mexican kid once and we were talking about the guards being assholes and he said "they're like machine men"; and I said "with machine minds and machine hearts?" and he was like "YES! You know it?!" -- it was a good moment, we spent the next few days trying to remember the whole s…

[flagged]

I sincerely think you need to step out of your political circle, whatever it may be, and try to understand the "mob" you think would cancel this movie. Whoever you are consuming this take from is lying to you about the motivations of their opponents. You MIGHT find some isolated instance where someone objects to this movie. However, they'll be in an extreme minority.

When you take a bit of time to understand when and why someone wants to cancel something, it's generally not the story you've consumed from sensationalist media. More often than not, it's a company self censoring and not some mob demanding cancellation.

You may still disagree with the "mob", however, at least you'd not have such a cartoonishly wrong take on the motivations of those you disagree with.

Re: The Final Speech from The Great Dictator (1940)

#250

Post by Deprogrammer9 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #222
Deprogrammer9 wrote: post #210

This part is very interesting. "Even now my voice is reaching millions" Chaplin knew this message was for future generations. When he says "even now" it means, hey im long dead but this message is finally being herd around the world. Chaplin & Nikola Tesla were friends. Tesla told Chaplin what was to come down the line like the internet, what he called "the transmission of intelligence" I honestly wouldn't be surpris…

The bits about "doing away with greed" and science and progress leading to rich life and happiness for all, they kind of read like he's predicting the United Federation of Planets. Alas, we've still got ways to go, we got stuck at the part where we double-down on greed to use it as the engine that makes the world go.

Chaplin was an anarchist he was against capitalism & it will fully fail soon probably due to AI ect.
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