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Cats kill a staggering number of species across the world

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Re: Cats kill a staggering number of species across the world

#61
post #5
post #2

I've read multiple times that there've been discussions in a few places around the world to ban cats, or certain breeding of cats to save wildlife, or birds specifically. But I haven't heard any law become real, anyone?

Unfortunately, no me neither. I think this issue extends beyond cats, it's the uncontrolled breeding of animals, which imo leads to all sorts of abuse. I find it amazing that anyone can decide I'm going to buy a breeding pair of cats with the end goal of making money. We need to phase out cats and dogs completely. This saddens me deeply because I love my dog but the damage these animals do to the environment is so la…

> We need to phase out cats and dogs completely. This saddens me deeply because I love my dog but the damage these animals do to the environment is so large I don't think I can truly fathom.

What? That's a ridiculous "solution".

I'm absolutely in favor of mandatory spay/neuter, and much stricter regulation of breeders. (I would say, outlaw breeders entirely, but I don't think laws like that will fly with voters when it comes to dogs, at least.)

But I don't think "eliminate two species of animal" is a good solution to anything, outside of some narrow cases (disease-carrying mosquitos). And regardless, the idea that it would be politically possible to ban having cats or dogs as pets... that's naive, at best.

I agree that uncontrolled breeding is a problem, but "phasing out" cats and dogs entirely is not a solution; that too is barbaric.

Re: Cats kill a staggering number of species across the world

#63
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems very unlikely to happen. People like their cats.

mandatory spay/neuter with steep/progressive fines, plus ban free-roaming cats? that's a lot more achievable, and nearly as good.

Yep, although I don't think bans on outside cats are a good idea for several reasons.

The key issue is controlling feral populations in a cultural context where large-scale hunting programs would never be tolerated by the public for obvious reasons.

To do this we need to a) control the supply of fertile human-bred cats into the feral population and b) remove and neuter extant feral cats from the environment.

We can accomplish both of these goals by mandating neutering and ID chips as you suggested, and temporarily banning or placing heavy restrictions on cat breeding.

This will shift all the demand for pet cats onto rescued feral cats, which will finally provide the funding needed to put a dent in feral populations. In addition it should stop the flow of lost fertile cats into the environment.

Now, it's not necessarily doable to train a formerly feral cat to spend the rest of its life inside. My cat lived most his life in the woods, and he completely loses his mind if he's stuck inside. No amount of toys and catnip can compensate for the ability to roam freely. And it's obvious that a feral cat kills orders of magnitude more wildlife than an outside cat with a cat flap and consistent access to food.

There are also plenty of measures that can be taken like restricting outside cat ownership in areas with vulnerable animal populations, mandates for cats to wear bells etc.

Re: Cats kill a staggering number of species across the world

#64
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even for indoor cats? Responsible indoor-only cat owners cause none of these problems

Cats get out, I know plenty of people who's cats escaped and they spend a day or two looking for them.

This is the exception, not the rule. And if a cat that's escaped and spends a couple days outside is going to destroy a wildlife ecosystem, then that ecosystem was probably already on the verge of collapse anyway.

I think we have much lower hanging (and more impactful) fruit than "ban even indoor-only cats because sometimes they escape".

Re: Cats kill a staggering number of species across the world

#65
post #22
post #2

I've read multiple times that there've been discussions in a few places around the world to ban cats, or certain breeding of cats to save wildlife, or birds specifically. But I haven't heard any law become real, anyone?

Cats roamed free for hundreds and hundreds years now. It is not like their presence was a new change.

Only in limited areas, though, and in limited numbers. Introducing feral cats to new places in numbers supported by human breeding is totally different than a natural slow extension of their range.

Wildcats that evolved in an ecosystem have their place within it, at numbers supported by the prey population there that co-evolved with them.

When humans suddenly introduce housecats to a new environment where the prey never had the chance to co-evolve, the overnight influx (in evolutionary time) will rapidly decrease the prey populations.

Some birds on long established migratory paths are especially vulnerable too, since they have limited options for resting grounds along the way.

Re: Cats kill a staggering number of species across the world

#66

This is why I am against feeding wild cats (usually by well-intentioned people). They are ruthless predators and enough of them are around. Cats can slaughter bird colonies (though somehow they never slaughter the ugly pigeons, nor the invasive parrots in the area I live in) so they are best left to themselves instead of going the "beautiful kitty that is starving" way and artificially growing their population. Final…

> This is why I am against feeding wild cats (usually by well-intentioned people). They are ruthless predators and enough of them are around.

Wouldn't feeding them reduce the amount they need to kill to feed themselves? I know of at least one cat colony that has a caretaker that feeds them, they have all been catch and release spayed/neutered so the colony can't grow. They try to get adoptions for some of them but the only other alternative is to kill them.

Re: Cats kill a staggering number of species across the world

#68
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are called tigers

I think you've never seen a tiger up close. The largest tiger on record reportedly weighed 423 kg (933 lb).(wikipedia).

That's 2.7 zorbas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorba_(dog)

Re: Cats kill a staggering number of species across the world

#69
post #28

No kidding. Where I live, we had many different kinds of small birds and bunnies in our yard. A couple of years ago, 2 Neighbors got a cat and they let them out. After 6 months, no birds and no rabbits. Now all I see are crows and an occasional Blue Jay. All the small song birds are gone. IMO, there should be a $2000 USD tax per year on owning cats. If you do not register the cat, you get a hefty fine. Also dog catch…

> Also dog catchers should be allowed to pick up cats roaming outside.

Many places have TNR programs (Trap, Neuter, Return), at the very least. Sure, that doesn't solve the problem of the existing cats killing local wildlife, but it at least ensures they won't continue to reproduce.

The problem with catching and keeping all cats (and dogs, really) is that most places just don't have the shelter space for them. Euthanasia for stray animals has become unpopular in many places (a stance I support and agree with), so it boils down to balancing how many animals you can get adopted vs. how much shelter space you have vs. how many stray animals there are out there.

In the past few years we've adopted three cats from our local SPCA shelter, that were found as strays. I wish every cat out there had the opportunity to live in a nice home without needing to kill the local wildlife for food.

Re: Cats kill a staggering number of species across the world

#70
post #58
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A primary difference is that cats were introduced into environments as a non-native species and have become the apex predator. This is especially true in New Zealand and Australia. Unlike native carnivorous mammals such as the Tasmanian Devil, Quall's, and Bandicoots, cats hunt for food and sport rather than act as scavengers. Cats in Tasmania have no natural predators other than humans. I've had many cats for pets a…

This whole argument of 'non-native' irks me, with animals and plants. Most everything was non-native at some point. I mean of course it depends on (potentially huge) timelines but at some point in the past land bridges between continents didn't exist and then existed and then didn't exist. At some point some seed got lucky enough to be carried across a sea either by an animal or just wind. I know this is a naive poin…

I dunno why you were flagged. It's a totally valid question IMO, and I asked it a lot in school too (environmental science undergrad). To me, the difference is the RATE of change and expansion.

Nature and evolution can pretty easily deal with small changes in small areas happening over hundreds or thousands of years, which was normal before human population explosions.

But when that change happens across multiple human settlements (large areas), quickly (industrialization and the green revolution in just a few decades), and at a huge scale (not just cats but climate change and deforestation and pollution all leading to habitat loss), it is very very hard for other species to cope.

If a few individual wildcats crossed a land bridge, sure, they'll have a field day as they gorge on unsuspecting prey. They'll do well and reproduce, and their kittens will eat more prey. But eventually there are more wildcats than prey, a harsh winter or drought comes along, and a bunch of kittens die and the prey have a chance to recover over the next few years. It reaches a dynamic equilibrium.

That's different than when humans settle a new place and suddenly introduce hordes of rats and start breeding pet cats, at numbers far above what the prey population can sustain (because we feed them pet food). The unwanted ones become feral and enter the system at a rate higher than they would've through normal migration, and then we keep breeding more and more of them with an outside input (more pet food). Pretty quickly the feral cats will kill off a lot of the unsuspecting prey (the dumber, more exotic birds, often) and leave a bunch of human-adopted species like rats and corvids and squirrels that can coexist with cats, often having immigrated with the humans for hundreds of years. So you end up swapping the local wildlife for the introduced ones in just a decade or two, way faster than the dozens or hundreds of years it usually takes.

On islands or where settlements and road networks form unnatural barriers, this is especially bad because the escaping prey have nowhere to run to, being isolated to smaller non-contiguos pockets that can individually be trapped until the whole species is extinct or at least extricated (locally extinct).

Of course there are gray areas. The Hawaiian Islands, for example, are a mix of species that ended up there naturally, some a long time ago, some more recently. They have different times of introduction, just like humans do. But because it's a young island chain (in geologic time), its whole timeline is compressed and the species there have different, eh, degrees of "native"-ness, I guess. And among the various introduced species, not all of them are considered invasive. https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/hisc/info/

Anyway, it's not an exactly cutoff date or algorithmic formula for determining nativeness. It's just a case by case judgment call based on the relative time of introduction compared to the ecosystem age, and also the effects of the introduced species on other preexisting ones. It's a human judgment call subject to errors, like any others, but still a useful consideration in ecology.

Sorry for the long post...

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