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NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

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Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#191

Post by superposeur »

qqtt wrote: post #187
superposeur wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is “important to remember” precisely because these days people are not remembering this and speak with a sense of inevitability about discovering life elsewhere, which sense of inevitability is totally unsupported. I may gently point out, your own post says “it is only a matter of time before science can connect the dots”, reflecting this (in my view) distorted sense. The abiogenesis research you cite is absolutel…

> It is “important to remember” precisely because these days people are not remembering this and speak with a sense of inevitability about discovering life elsewhere Could you expand on this a bit. Whether someone speaks with a sense of inevitability or not, why is it important either way? Why is it "important" to remind people we haven't (yet) found life on other planets? Why are the existing gaps in abiogenesis "im…

Well, first, I take it to be an axiomatic goal of science to believe that which is true, disbelieve that which is false and to be agnostic about things we have no evidence about; I.e to calibrate our model of world to the world as it is.

But, further, I’ve seen what happens when a subfield reports its findings in a way that misleadingly raises expectations of a titanic discovery just around the corner. When the discovery fails to materialize, over-optimism curdles into its opposite, over-cynicism. Better to calibrate expectations accurately — slow and steady wins the race.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#192

Post by creer »

dayjaby wrote: post #168
creer wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That link (going from basic chemical to bootstrapped evolution) is an entire field of research. Not one paper now and then. Labs, money, researchers building on each other's work... Just want to point out.

Any good (starter) books on this?

I have passed on the request to one of the scientists.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#193

Post by zvmaz »

hossbeast wrote: post #48
zvmaz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever existed anywhere in the observable universe but Earth. It is hard for me to believe that in the mind boggling vastness of space and time, we are the sole singularity in the history of the universe.

Many things which are hard to believe are nevertheless true.

Sure, but in this case, we don't know.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#194

Post by anticensor »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #144
TeMPOraL wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What oxygen-breathing cells do is pretty much nanoscale combustion, so the analogy seems apt.

The proton gradients are quite different from combustion though…

The proton gradient serves to regulate the combustion, one molecule at a time...

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#196

Post by superposeur »

holoduke wrote: post #84

The fact that there is something, just something can drive me crazy. Why is there something and not just nothing.

I agree — it’s a question that takes one right up to the limits of human cognition. Another question like this: “is the universe finite or infinite?” One or the other must be true, yet both options will eventually melt your brain to contemplate.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#197

Post by gitaarik »

intrasight wrote: post #5

I don't much like the spark and fire analogy with life. Not sure what analogy works. We don't yet really understand life well enough to have a good one.

That's the whole reason why they call it like that, because they don't understand it and it seems like something magical. And it will always be like that in the current materialistic paradigm. Why would dead unconscious matter suddenly combine into something which seems to have some kind of consciousness? Also see the Hard problem of consciousness:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousnes...

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#198

Post by fzeindl »

grupthink wrote: post #68
fzeindl wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once heard: „The universe is unbelievably huge and unbelievably old so rare events happen all the time.“ I think it meant that even if life started itself accidentally by some unbelievably slim chance, this could happen somewhere else as well simply because the dice are rolled that often. I think time is the factor here. When you take into account not only the size of the universe but also it‘s age, the chance that…

All dimensions are a factor. Life could exist on different time-scales (e.g. it moves so slow we thought it was inanimate). It could exist on different physical-scales (be so large we don't realize we are a part of it). Or, it could exist on an entirely different plane of existence (on a desolate planet in a shard of silicon that is turing complete and quietly simulating its own recursive universe).

> be so large we don't realize we are a part of it

While these are valid and interesting ideas from science fiction, I personally doubt that there's some fundamental property about human life that we haven't noticed yet, like some fundamental connection to other matter.

Simply because there's no evidence that our primitive understanding about what is life, has fundamentally changed in history. I guess a few thousand years ago people understood that we, plants and animals are alive and rocks are not and we still think the same. (nature religions aside)

So if there was no shift in understanding for such a long time, why should we now realize we are part of something a part from an eco system?

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#199

Post by consumer451 »

superposeur wrote: post #6

This is intriguing and I’m very happy this exploration is being done. But, for decades, I’ve been reading reports of the discovery of evidence for the trappings of life elsewhere: water and organics and “habitable” exoplanets. These are valuable discoveries, but the tone of the reports suggest they imply life is about to turn up. It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever…

> But, for decades, I’ve been reading reports of the discovery of evidence for the trappings of life elsewhere: water and organics and “habitable” exoplanets. These are valuable discoveries, but the tone of the reports suggest they imply life is about to turn up.

I agree that life is not very likely. We appear to have gotten lucky. Aka, “the rare earth hypothesis.” As far as habitable zones, both Mars and Venus are in the habitable zone of our solar system, and they appear to be barren.

But do not despair! A new approach has been identified. Look much wider and farther, and as opposed to biosignatures, we should look for signs of technosignatures. This would be much harder to mistake for natural chemical processes.

Choza et al. (2023; breakthrough listen search for extra-galactic technosignatures) - https://seti.berkeley.edu/galaxies/choza.pdf

https://youtu.be/2RQWiJ0x_R4?t=121

Technosignatures in general seem to be a good idea to satiate our curiosity.

https://youtu.be/BtSn_PTQtds?t=1966

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