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NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

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Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#51
post #30

This is intriguing and I’m very happy this exploration is being done. But, for decades, I’ve been reading reports of the discovery of evidence for the trappings of life elsewhere: water and organics and “habitable” exoplanets. These are valuable discoveries, but the tone of the reports suggest they imply life is about to turn up. It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever…

> It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever existed anywhere in the observable universe but Earth. It is hard for me to believe that in the mind boggling vastness of space and time, we are the sole singularity in the history of the universe.

When Everest was first measured, it was exactly 29,000 feet.

They figured no one would believe this, so they told people it was 29,002 feet

Sometimes things just are, regardless of what we expect.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#52
post #34

This is intriguing and I’m very happy this exploration is being done. But, for decades, I’ve been reading reports of the discovery of evidence for the trappings of life elsewhere: water and organics and “habitable” exoplanets. These are valuable discoveries, but the tone of the reports suggest they imply life is about to turn up. It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever…

I happen to agree with you. I am in the "we are it" crowd but still agree with should explore.

I am too - I think it’s the moon plus Jupiter that is extremely unique and makes complex life possible

I also think it’s a lot of pressure if it’s only us, so it’s easier to imagine we’re one of billions.

Honestly, honestly think it’s just us. Maybe not in the entire universe but in our local cluster.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#53
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here’s another thing. With how difficult it is to probe new physics, we stand to do a lot more research by simply inspecting all the observable universe than trying to build colliders.

Finding a new particle doesn't necessarily threaten strictly up held religious beliefs like finding life somewhere other than this rock

Catholics officially believe in aliens, and that we should save them (if they weren’t visited by Jesus)

Jews wouldn’t care either. Don’t know about Muslims, but it’s not threatening to the other Abrahamic religions

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would turn your logic around and say, everywhere we are able to look, we find evidence that life is more likely than expected. Until the 1990's it was an open question whether any other star had planets; as soon as we got the tools to test that, we found they were ubiquitous. As soon as we got the right instruments to Mars, we found signs of moving water, methane sources, and complex organic molecules in what is ba…

These factors are what I call the “trappings of life”. It is a completely open question (and I mean completely ) how likely life is to arise spontaneously when these factors are present. One single instance of life elsewhere or successful abiogenesis in the lab would change that, but we have neither.

I agree it’s an open question, but I think it’s highly likely with lots of circumstantial evidence that life is an evolutionary emergent phenomenon where inorganic material reactions create life. We already know that’s the case in highly controlled environments. We don’t yet have confidence about the exact mechanism on Earth but based on those experiments it’s likely (& generally currently accepted as the most likely mechanism AFAIK) that the boundary layer of volcanoes (probably underwater) + some crucial initial elements being available causes life to form “spontaneously”. Given the elements required and their overall availability in the universe, it’s also highly likely these conditions reproduce quite readily & life is generally quite abundant. Similarly, significant levels of intelligence within animals seems like quite a common occurrence as well (great and lesser apes, elephants, octopuses, dolphins, wolves etc). Whether or not intelligence + physiological evolution + social evolution to take advantage of that intelligence to build things cooperatively is a huge unknown of course although I think it’s inevitable. On the other hand, how long life sticks around on a planet once it forms is an open question - it’s not clear if a life ecosystem that’s stable for billions of years is likely and I suspect there’s probably a small amount of filtering that happens where planets become inhospitable rather “quickly” and can’t support life for multiple billions of years (e.g. there were probably several events in our history where it could have collapsed).

Our type of society is probably much much rarer because you need access to mineral and energy deposits to go through each technological phase. For example, because of all the mining we’ve done, if humanity were to disappear it’s highly likely the Earth would not sustain another technological society because all the “easy to get to” deposits of crucial metals & things like oil are gone and there’s no way to bootstrap a technological society (it’s possible other kinds of resources could be developed to build other kinds of technology so who knows).

I think based on our existing body of knowledge, life is likely extremely plentiful throughout the universe at one point in time or another. Some form of intelligent life is highly likely wherever we find any life that manages to stick around through bilions of years. A highly technological adept species of life though is highly likely an extreme rarity and a planet gets one shot at developing it. Whether any manages to escape their home planet remains an open question that likely only we will manage to answer over the next thousands of years if we make it that far.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#55
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've barely started looking. It's like picking up one piece of hay, not finding a needle and declaring there's no needle in the haystack.

No is declaring that there is no needle in the haystack. Please actually read my post.

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

sorry your life has created this crusade of rhetorically reminding people about the absence is evidence

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#56

This is intriguing and I’m very happy this exploration is being done. But, for decades, I’ve been reading reports of the discovery of evidence for the trappings of life elsewhere: water and organics and “habitable” exoplanets. These are valuable discoveries, but the tone of the reports suggest they imply life is about to turn up. It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever…

People are reacting negatively to your comment, the reason is that however accurate your complaint may be about most such reporting (IMO you are correct), you have chosen to attach it to this article. I find no evidence in this article of “tone implying life is about to turn up”.

I think you have misread the tone. The article certainly has a tone of excitement throughout. But it’s excitement for further knowledge, in general.

Of the possibility of life showing up elsewhere, it says only this: “Scientists are still a long way from answering whether life could originate on Enceladus”

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#57
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've barely started looking. It's like picking up one piece of hay, not finding a needle and declaring there's no needle in the haystack.

No is declaring that there is no needle in the haystack. Please actually read my post.

[deleted]

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding a new particle doesn't necessarily threaten strictly up held religious beliefs like finding life somewhere other than this rock

Catholics officially believe in aliens, and that we should save them (if they weren’t visited by Jesus) Jews wouldn’t care either. Don’t know about Muslims, but it’s not threatening to the other Abrahamic religions

> Catholics officially believe in aliens,

A definitive position on the existence of aliens is not part of the Catholic faith.

But, the church admits the possibility and church institutions have done some explorations about what the implications of such contact might be, and how Catholic doctrine might apply to different possibilities.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#59
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No is declaring that there is no needle in the haystack. Please actually read my post.

“I just want to be clear that we’ve definitely not actually found life. We’ve found likely precursors everywhere, habitable bodies everywhere, have plausible theories on how to go from precursors to bootstrapping, and see life in every corner of the planet we have explored. But just to be clear we haven’t actually found life anywhere else yet.” Yeah, we know. So what then was the point of your post?

Well, perhaps you know that none of the recent findings are evidence of life, but in my conversations with others I have perceived a great deal of confusion on this point, even among scientifically literate colleagues. Also, the fact that we have zero understanding of the probability of abiogenesis is, in my experience, a greatly under-appreciated fact. I speculate that the way findings are reported contributes to this confusion.

Also, at risk of incurring a flame, I'll gently point out that you are folding into this confusion and reinforcing it with your language: "likely precursors everywhere, habitable bodies" ... we absolutely do not know that these conditions are "likely" precursors, which is a statement about a probability we know nothing about and as for "habitable" we do not actually know anything about whether or not a body is habitable in the sense of likely to spontaneously form life.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These factors are what I call the “trappings of life”. It is a completely open question (and I mean completely ) how likely life is to arise spontaneously when these factors are present. One single instance of life elsewhere or successful abiogenesis in the lab would change that, but we have neither.

I agree it’s an open question, but I think it’s highly likely with lots of circumstantial evidence that life is an evolutionary emergent phenomenon where inorganic material reactions create life. We already know that’s the case in highly controlled environments. We don’t yet have confidence about the exact mechanism on Earth but based on those experiments it’s likely (& generally currently accepted as the most likely…

>Our type of society is probably much much rarer because you need access to mineral and energy deposits to go through each technological phase. For example, because of all the mining we’ve done, if humanity were to disappear it’s highly likely the Earth would not sustain another technological society because all the “easy to get to” deposits of crucial metals & things like oil are gone and there’s no way to bootstrap a technological society (it’s possible other kinds of resources could be developed to build other kinds of technology so who knows).

As I recall-though it's been many years-this was something of a premise in Farmer's Riverworld series. Once you've taken the first pass though historical mineral etc. resources, you don't really get a second pass.

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