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Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

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Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#221

Post by frognumber »

Qwertious wrote: post #212
frognumber wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not too polite to repost what people removed. Errors on the internet shouldn't haunt people forever. However, my experience is that the comments about AMD are spot-on, with the exception of the word "proprietary." Intel hasn't gotten serious yet, and has a good track record in other domains (compilers, numerical libraries, etc.). They've been flailing for a while, but I'm curious if they'll come up with somethin…

>It's not too polite to repost what people removed. Errors on the internet shouldn't haunt people forever. IMO the comment deletion system handles deleting your own comment wrong - it should grey out the comment and strikethrough it, and label it "comment disavowed" or something with the username removed, but it shouldn't actually delete the comment. Deleting the comment damages the history, and makes the comment cha…

I'm not sure history should be sacred. In the world of science, this is important, but otherwise, we didn't used to live in a universe where every embarrassing thing we did in middle school would haunt us in our old age.

I feel bad for the younger generation. Privacy is important, and more so than "the history."

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#222

Post by bdd8f1df777b »

TheAlchemist wrote: post #149

Can anybody with a deep knowledge of the AI space, explain to me what's the real moat of CUDA ? It's clear to everybody that it's not the hardware but the software - which is the CUDA ecosystem. I've played a bit in the past with ML, but at the level of understanding I had - training some models, tweaking things, I was using higher level libraries and as far as I know, it's pretty much an if statement in those librar…

Your understanding is correct, but the predicates are not easy at all. The amount of work going into CUDA is enormous, and NVIDIA is not standing still waiting for their competitors to catch up.

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#223

Post by ksec »

tester756 wrote: post #161
brindlejim wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel spent more than a decade under Otellini, Krzanich and Swan. Bean counters. Gelsinger was appointed out of desperation, but the problem runs much deeper. I doubt that culture is gone. It has already cost Intel many opportunities.

>Intel spent more than a decade under Otellini, Krzanich and Swan. Bean counters. It still doesn't change mistake in your original message. >Gelsinger was appointed out of desperation, but the problem runs much deeper. How much "much deeper"? VPs? middle level managers? engineers? The example goes from the top, so if he can change the culture at the top, it will eventually get deeper.

>It still doesn't change mistake in your original message.

Precisely. The problem I found on HN is that It is hard to have any meaningful discussion on anything Hardware. Especially when it is mixed with business or economics models.

I was greedy and was hoping Intel could fall closer to $20 in early 2023 before I load up more of their stock. Otherwise I would put more money where my mouth is.

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#224

Post by rasz »

The ship has sailed 10 years ago. I signed up for Uni GPGPU (probably called something like 'Heterogeneous Parallel Programming') course back then, and only during first lecture learned that all hardware and material was provided by NVIDIA free of charge. Result was pure CUDA class with no alternatives ever mentioned, just like the good old days of Word and Excel College courses.

Nvidia is really good at building/buying moats:

PhysX where lack of Nvidia GPU used to default you into unoptimized FPU slow path on SSE capable CPUs https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2010/07/did-nvidia-cripple-it... https://www.realworldtech.com/physx87/3/ "For Nvidia, decreasing the baseline CPU performance by using x87 instructions and a single thread makes GPUs look better."

"The Way It’s Meant To Be Played" program paying of studios to directly cripple AMD. Ubisoft retracting DX10.1 patch is one example https://techreport.com/news/14707/ubisoft-comments-on-assass...

"GameWorks" program where Nvidia went one step further paying game studios to directly embed Nvidia crippleware libraries in games. https://techreport.com/review/21404/crysis-2-tessellation-to... https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/05/amd-says-nvidias-game... https://wccftech.com/fight-nvidias-gameworks-continues-amd-c...

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#225

Post by [deleted] »

kelipso wrote: post #213
tormeh wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source generally wins once the state of the art has stopped moving. When a field is still experiencing rapid change closed source solutions generally do better than open source ones. Until we somehow figure out a relatively static set of requirements for running and training LLMs I wouldn’t expect any open source solution to win.

That doesn't really make sense. Pretty much all LLMs are trained in pytorch, which is open source. LLMs only reached the state it is now because many academic conferences insisted that paper submissions have open source code attached to it. So much of the ML/AI ecosystem is open source. Pretty much only CUDA is not open source.

[deleted]

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#226

Post by anigbrowl »

latchkey wrote: post #81
PeterisP wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they're doubling down, but even doubling down is not enough to say that they're serious about it since they've been so neglectful for so many years - for example, right now they explicitly say that many of AMD GPUs are not supported by ROCm; if they're not willing to put their money where their mouth is and do the legwork to ensure support for powerful cards they sold just a few years ago, how can they say yo…

People argue for ROCm to support older cards because that is all they have accessible to them. AMD has lagged on getting expensive cards into the hands of end users because they've focused only on building super computers. I predict that access to the newer cards is a more likely scenario. Right now, you can't rent a MI250 or even MI300x, but that is going to change quickly. Azure is going to have them, as well as ot…

Well yeah. Before I go renting a super GPU in the cloud, I'd like to get my feet wet with the 5 year old but reasonably well specced AMD GPU (Vega 48) in my iMac...but I can't. It's more rational for me to get an fancy 2021 GPU or a Jetson and stick it in an enclosure or build a Linux box around it. At least I know CUDA is a mature ecosystem and is going to be around for a while, so whatever time I invest in it is likely to pay for itself.

I get your point about AMD not wanting to spend money on supporting old hardware, but how do they expect to build a market without a fan base?

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#227

Post by anigbrowl »

latchkey wrote: post #109
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People argue for ROCm to support older cards because that is all they have accessible to them. What they really need is to support the less expensive cards, of which the older cards are a large subset. There are a lot of people who will make contributions and fix bugs if they can actually use the thing. Some CS student at the university has to pay tuition and therefore only has an old RX570, and that isn't going to…

I ran 130,000 RX470-580 cards, so I know them quite well. Those cards aren't going to do anything useful with AI/ML. That technology is just too old and things are moving too quickly. It isn't just the card, but the mobo, disks, ram, networking...

That's fine for corporate customers, but how do you expect kids and hobbyists to learn the basics without spending thousands on an A6000 or something?

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#228

Post by fbdab103 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #148
paulddraper wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of the open standard is to untether your prospective customers from the incumbent. That is the point. But FWIW the incumbent adopts it and dominates anyway. (Though you now are technically "untethered.")

> But FWIW the incumbent adopts it and dominates anyway. (Though you now are technically "untethered.") That's assuming the incumbent's advantage isn't rooted in the lock-in. If ML was suddenly untethered from CUDA, now you're competing on hardware. Intel would still have mediocre GPUs, but AMD's are competitive, and Intel's could be in the near future if they execute competently. The open standard doesn't automatica…

If the software side no longer mattered, I would expect all three vendors would magically start competing on available RAM. A slower card with double today's RAM would absolutely sell.

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#229

Post by hackernewds »

tester756 wrote: post #125
brindlejim wrote: post #15

Fun fact: More than half of all engineers at NVIDIA are software engineers. Jensen has deliberately and strategically built a powerful software stack on top of his GPUs, and he's spent decades doing it. Until Intel finds a CEO who is as technical and strategic, as opposed to the bean-counters, I doubt that they will manage to organize a successful counterattack on CUDA.

>finds a CEO who is as technical and strategic, as opposed to the bean-counters Did you just call Gelsinger a "non-technical"? wow, how out of touch with reality >Gelsinger first joined Intel at 18 years old in 1979 just after earning an associate degree from Lincoln Tech.[9] He spent much of his career with the company in Oregon,[12] where he maintains a home.[13] In 1987, he co-authored his first book about program…

1989 is 34 years ago.

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#230

Post by code_biologist »

frognumber wrote: post #221
Qwertious wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not too polite to repost what people removed. Errors on the internet shouldn't haunt people forever. IMO the comment deletion system handles deleting your own comment wrong - it should grey out the comment and strikethrough it, and label it "comment disavowed" or something with the username removed, but it shouldn't actually delete the comment. Deleting the comment damages the history, and makes the comment cha…

I'm not sure history should be sacred. In the world of science, this is important, but otherwise, we didn't used to live in a universe where every embarrassing thing we did in middle school would haunt us in our old age. I feel bad for the younger generation. Privacy is important, and more so than "the history."

Long ago, under a different account, I emailed dang about removing some comment content that became too identifying only years after the comments in question. He did so and was very gracious about it. dang, you're cool af and you make HN a great place!
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