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My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

theguardian.com

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Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#111

Post by robertlagrant »

the_af wrote: post #104
robertlagrant wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that people (mostly in the English speaking world) aren't capable of rational discourse about socialism or redistribution or inequality because these are all Communism-adjacent topics I agree, but for the opposite reason. As soon as I replied to you, you stopped talking about the topic itself and started communicating how tired you were, and how laborious talking about all this is. That's why you can't have a ratio…

Well, you did claim that > You've decided the person does like socialism and communism, but is afraid to say so Maybe this assertion of yours didn't help? Are you willing to consider this? edit: but since the OP also misunderstood my observation, I'm willing to concede the point I wasn't clear enough.

> Maybe this assertion of yours didn't help? Are you willing to consider this?

I'll consider anything if it's mentioned. If you just said "Ah - I see what happened here. What I actually meant was ..." about 3 comments ago, we'd have had a regular conversation. I honestly don't understand this approach - even here you don't just say what you mean. You ask whether an assertion didn't help as though you aren't sure yourself.

I have much more success just talking plainly. Makes it much more fun and productive to talk about this stuff.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#112

Post by the_af »

robertlagrant wrote: post #111
the_af wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you did claim that > You've decided the person does like socialism and communism, but is afraid to say so Maybe this assertion of yours didn't help? Are you willing to consider this? edit: but since the OP also misunderstood my observation, I'm willing to concede the point I wasn't clear enough.

> Maybe this assertion of yours didn't help? Are you willing to consider this? I'll consider anything if it's mentioned. If you just said "Ah - I see what happened here. What I actually meant was ..." about 3 comments ago, we'd have had a regular conversation. I honestly don't understand this approach - even here you don't just say what you mean. You ask whether an assertion didn't help as though you aren't sure your…

Fair enough:

Plainly speaking, your assertion didn't help, since you put in my mouth words (or rather, meaning) I didn't say. That is not conducive to productive conversation.

My suggestion: next time instead of claiming what the other person meant, ask them what they mean. That way I think you will truly have "more success".

Does this sound acceptable to you? If it doesn't, I don't think we can continue having any kind of meaningful conversation.

I do understand that psychologically speaking, at this point it will be hard for you to back down or make any concessions. Note how you didn't even apologize for your mistaken claim, nor even acknowledge when I called you out on it explicitly. Fight this urge to be stubborn.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#113

Post by justworkout »

Veraticus wrote: post #102
justworkout wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can hate the politics and foreign policy or various degrees of brutality in all of those countries, but implying Russia and China are as bad as North Korea is a little extreme. Doubly so when you imply any positive opinion is just contrarianism, when people on HN have freely traveled or even lived within the first two. You can honestly have a pretty comfy life in the first two countries, especially as an expat. A…

I’m gay, so I feel like my quality of life in any of those places would be quite a bit worse than in the US.

In China, you might be disappointed to find that people would just shrug in response to you announcing that. Absolutely nobody cares. You'd get far less reaction than you would in some southern states or small towns in the US.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#114

Post by Veraticus »

justworkout wrote: post #113
Veraticus wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m gay, so I feel like my quality of life in any of those places would be quite a bit worse than in the US.

In China, you might be disappointed to find that people would just shrug in response to you announcing that. Absolutely nobody cares. You'd get far less reaction than you would in some southern states or small towns in the US.

I have a husband and family. Same-sex marriage and adoption is illegal in China, but not anywhere in the US. I can’t speak to public attitudes, but I would assume that they are correspondingly worse in China.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#115

Post by plasmatix »

whatshisface wrote: post #108
plasmatix wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you don’t seem to be aware, propaganda could have negative real world impact influencing (not even mind control!) a small group of people. Imagine the impact is only a group of 5 people “defect” to North Korea under the belief it is some paradise. Thats harms.

That's just bad advice. How can you ban bad advice? I can't imagine what society would be like if nonprofessionals had liability for the harms that came to other people as a result of acting on their opinions, the way we have liabilities for doctors or lawyers in a client-provider relationship. Yeesh, you'd be putting people in jail for the crime of being dumb online.

All you've been doing is mischaracterizing things to the point of absurdity and then pointing out how your mischaracterizations are absurd.

Propaganda can be harmful even if hasn't programmed anyone to welcome an invader with open arms.

Nobody was put in jail for writing poetry. They were put in jail for praising North Korea.

Banning the praise of North Korea isn't banning bad advice.

If the person had been speaking into a microphone instead you'd be telling me how South Korea outlawed talking.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#116

Post by krowfromthewall »

Pigalowda wrote: post #100
blitzar wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how propaganda works, we are trained to believe an image of NK.

I wonder what other intelligent things you believe. And it’s not “NK” it is DPRK.

In that case, its not UK, its United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

NK or North Korea is a common name used by many to refer to that country, DPRK is the official name. Anyone is free to use whichever one they want.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#117

Post by justworkout »

Veraticus wrote: post #114
justworkout wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China, you might be disappointed to find that people would just shrug in response to you announcing that. Absolutely nobody cares. You'd get far less reaction than you would in some southern states or small towns in the US.

I have a husband and family. Same-sex marriage and adoption is illegal in China, but not anywhere in the US. I can’t speak to public attitudes, but I would assume that they are correspondingly worse in China.

Socially, nobody would care. Apparently China even grants marriage visas for same-sex couples, although locally it's not really possible to get married yet. But the vast majority of countries still have legal opposition to it so China isn't unique in that sense, although China is making clear changes towards by granting couples various legal benefits similar to typical marriages. It's ahead of some European countries.

Throughout east Asia, people really just do not care what others outside their family do and don't get upset about it. But because it's none of their concern, basically nobody bothers to march in the streets for it, and governments are slow to push for social change.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#118

Post by morbicer »

credit_guy wrote: post #87
dev_slash_null wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How exactly is education a privilege? At least in the US, everyone has access to public education. The article is literally about life in North Korea...

Should we then conclude that freedom of speech is a privilege because people in North Korea don’t have it?

Yes it is if the context is global.

Oxford dictionary:

privilege - a special right or advantage that a particular person or group of people has

1st example there: Education should be a universal right and not a privilege.

Globally, it's a privilege. Worldwide many girls can not get it. Or poor.

Even clean water is a privilege on a global scale. Perhaps in USA as well, ehm see Flint.

Language evolves. It's 21st century, privilege isn't about feudal taxes anymore. Queue meant tail and gay happy.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#119

Post by morbicer »

DeathArrow wrote: post #88

In communist country, as an author, you have to praise some ideals and ideas because otherwise you are being ostracized and dying from hunger. In a modern "democratic" society you have to praise some ideals and ideas because otherwise you are being ostracized and dying from hunger. It's so nice to have choices and to be able to freely write whatever you think or you fancy...

Nah, that's a load of horsecrap. In a modern "democratic" society you can praise staunch leftist ideas (Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Tariq Ali) or very right ones (Ayn Rand, Roger Scruton, Milton Friedman) and be respected. Liu Cixin supports Uighur concentration camps and is widely popular.

You can literally self-publish and sell almost anything on Amazon or similar sites. Very fringe opinions still find they readers and buyers.

Of course if you start spilling vile racist, misogynistic and hateful slop you might get shamed. Rightfully.

I grew up in a communist country and you have no idea about the censorship back then. And North Korea is way worse.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#120

Post by Veraticus »

justworkout wrote: post #117
Veraticus wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a husband and family. Same-sex marriage and adoption is illegal in China, but not anywhere in the US. I can’t speak to public attitudes, but I would assume that they are correspondingly worse in China.

Socially, nobody would care. Apparently China even grants marriage visas for same-sex couples, although locally it's not really possible to get married yet. But the vast majority of countries still have legal opposition to it so China isn't unique in that sense, although China is making clear changes towards by granting couples various legal benefits similar to typical marriages. It's ahead of some European countries…

This is untrue. See articles like this:

https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/4/21/fatherhood-fin...

> Today in China, gestational surrogacy is illegal for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. Adoption is restricted to people in heterosexual marriages. This means gay people can't have kids.

China lags significantly behind basically any European country in terms of gay rights and gay families and it’s getting worse:

https://www.latestly.com/socially/world/china-bans-gay-coupl...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna85528

Asserting people don’t care when the government continues to pursue obviously anti-LGBTQ policies is silly.

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