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Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

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Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#121

Post by AnthonyMouse »

pjmlp wrote: post #115
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just listing the ones that didn't knock it out of the park. TCP/IP completely displaced IPX to the point that most people don't even remember what it was. Nobody uses WINS anymore, even Microsoft uses DNS. It's rare to find an operating system that doesn't implement the POSIX API. The past is littered with the corpses of proprietary technologies displaced by open standards. Because customers don't actually wan…

> It's rare to find an operating system that doesn't implement the POSIX API. Except that it has barelly improved beyond CLI and daemons, still thinks terminals are the only hardware, everything else that matters isn't part of it, not even more modern networking protocols that aren't exposed in socket configurations.

Its purpose was to create compatibility between Unix vendors so developers could write software compatible with different flavors. The primary market for Unix vendors is servers, which to this day are still about CLI and daemons, and POSIX systems continue to have dominant market share in that market.

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#122

Post by [deleted] »

buildbot wrote: post #33

As another commenter said, it's CUDA. Intel and AMD and whoever can turn out chips reasonably fast, but nobody gets that it's the software and ecosystem. You have to out-compete the ecosystem. You can pick up a used Mi100 that performs almost like an A100 for 5x less money on eBay for example. Why is it 5x less? Because the software incompatibilities mean you'll spend a ton of time getting it to work compared to an N…

[deleted]

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#123

Post by latchkey »

_7il4 wrote: post #120
latchkey wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally, every single announcement (and action) coming out of AMD these days is that they are serious about the software. I don't see any reason at this point to doubt them. The larger issue is that they need to fix the access to their high end GPUs. You can't rent a MI250... or even a MI300x (yet, I'm working on that myself!). But that said, you can't rent an H100 either... there are none available.

ROCm is open source.

and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVl25BbczLI

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#124

Post by mepian »

_7il4 wrote: post #120
latchkey wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally, every single announcement (and action) coming out of AMD these days is that they are serious about the software. I don't see any reason at this point to doubt them. The larger issue is that they need to fix the access to their high end GPUs. You can't rent a MI250... or even a MI300x (yet, I'm working on that myself!). But that said, you can't rent an H100 either... there are none available.

How’s SYCL proprietary exactly?

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#125

Post by tester756 »

brindlejim wrote: post #15

Fun fact: More than half of all engineers at NVIDIA are software engineers. Jensen has deliberately and strategically built a powerful software stack on top of his GPUs, and he's spent decades doing it. Until Intel finds a CEO who is as technical and strategic, as opposed to the bean-counters, I doubt that they will manage to organize a successful counterattack on CUDA.

>finds a CEO who is as technical and strategic, as opposed to the bean-counters

Did you just call Gelsinger a "non-technical"? wow, how out of touch with reality

>Gelsinger first joined Intel at 18 years old in 1979 just after earning an associate degree from Lincoln Tech.[9] He spent much of his career with the company in Oregon,[12] where he maintains a home.[13] In 1987, he co-authored his first book about programming the 80386 microprocessor.[14][1] Gelsinger was the lead architect of the 4th generation 80486 processor[1] introduced in 1989.[9] At age 32, he was named the youngest vice president in Intel's history.[7] Mentored by Intel CEO Andrew Grove, Gelsinger became the company's CTO in 2001, leading key technology developments, including Wi-Fi, USB, Intel Core and Intel Xeon processors, and 14 chip projects.[2][15] He launched the Intel Developer Forum conference as a counterpart to Microsoft's WinHEC.

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#127

Post by Const-me »

bartwr wrote: post #30
ttoinou wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with compute shaders ?

I shipped a dozen products with them (mostly video games), so there's nothing "wrong" that would make them unusable. But programming them and setting up the graphics pipe (and all the passes, structured buffers, compiling, binding, weird errors, and synchronization) is a huge PITA as compared to the convenience of CUDA. Compilers are way less mature, especially on some platforms cough . Some GPU capabilities are not…

I have recently published an AI-related open-source project entirely based on compute shaders https://github.com/Const-me/Cgml and I’m super happy with the workflow. Possible to implement very complicated things without compiling a single line of C++, the software is mostly in C#.

> setting up the graphics pipe

I’ve picked D3D11, as opposed to D3D12 or Vulkan. The 11 is significantly higher level, and much easier to use.

> compiling, binding

The compiler is design-time, I ship them compiled, and integrated into the IDE. I solved the bindings with a simple code generation tool, which parses HLSL and generates C#.

> No proper debugging

I partially agree but still, we have renderdoc.

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#128

Post by paulddraper »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #96
foobiekr wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just Intel. Open initiatives and consortiums (the phase two of the same) are always the losers ganging up hoping that it will give them the leg up they don't have. If you're older you'll have seen this play out over and over in the industry - the history of Unix vs. Windows NT from the 1990s was full of actions like this, networking is going through it again for the nth time (this time with UltraEthernet) an…

You're just listing the ones that didn't knock it out of the park. TCP/IP completely displaced IPX to the point that most people don't even remember what it was. Nobody uses WINS anymore, even Microsoft uses DNS. It's rare to find an operating system that doesn't implement the POSIX API. The past is littered with the corpses of proprietary technologies displaced by open standards. Because customers don't actually wan…

I think OP's point was less that the tech didn't work (e.g. OpenGL was fantastically successful) and that it didn't produce a good outcome for the "loser" companies that supported it.

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#129

Post by AnthonyMouse »

latchkey wrote: post #118
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RX570 is going to do ML faster than a typical desktop CPU. That's all you need for the person who has one to want to use it for Llama or Stable Diffusion, and then want to improve the software for the thing they're now using. Not everything is a huge datacenter.

What is nonsense is that you think that AMD should dedicate limited resources to supporting a 6 year old card with only 4-8gb of ram (the ones I ran had 8). I didn't say they are bad cards... they are just outdated at this point. If you really want to put your words to action... let me know. I'll put you in touch with someone to buy 130,000 of these cards, and you can sell them to every college kid out there... until…

8GB is enough for Stable Diffusion or Llama 13B q4. They're outdated, but non-outdated GPUs are still expensive, so they're all many people can afford.

> I'll put you in touch with someone to buy 130,000 of these cards, and you can sell them to every college kid out there...

Just sell them on eBay? They still go for $50-$100 each, so you're sitting on several million dollars worth of GPUs.

> I'd personally rather see them catch up a bit first.

Growing the community is how you catch up. That doesn't happen if people can't afford the only GPUs you support.

Re: Intel CEO: 'The entire industry is motivated to eliminate the CUDA market'

#130

Post by latchkey »

_7il4 wrote: post #120
latchkey wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally, every single announcement (and action) coming out of AMD these days is that they are serious about the software. I don't see any reason at this point to doubt them. The larger issue is that they need to fix the access to their high end GPUs. You can't rent a MI250... or even a MI300x (yet, I'm working on that myself!). But that said, you can't rent an H100 either... there are none available.

What _7il4 removed were these two comments:

"AMD is not serious, and neither is Intel for that matter. Their software are piles of proprietary garbage fires. They may say they are serious but literally nothing indicates they are."

"Yes, and ROCm also doesn't work on anything non-AMD. In fact it doesn't even work on all recent AMD gpus. T"

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