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Maybe getting rid of your QA team was bad

davidkcaudill.medium.com

111–120 of 269 posts

Re: Maybe getting rid of your QA team was bad

#111

This point is brought up in the article but I think it is at the real heart of the issue. QA is almost always seen as a 'cost center' by the business and upper management. I have a hypothesis that you never ought to work in a department that is seen as a 'cost center'. The bonuses, the recognition, and the respect always goes to the money makers. The cost center is the first place to get more work with less hands, ge…

Even as a developer (mobile app developer) I feel like one has to be careful not to work on "cost center" things.

Accessibility, observability, good logging, testing infrastructure improvements, CI/CD tweaks, stability, better linting and analyzer issues are all important, but you will be rewarded if you ship features fast.

This year I spent too much time on the former because I felt like that's what the team and app needed, because nobody on the team priorized these issues, and I'll be sweating at the end of the year performance reviews.

Now knowing this, I understand why the others didn't want to work on these items, so next year, I'll be wiser, and I'll focus on shipping features that get me the most visibility.

Sorry for the bugs in the app, but I need a job to pay my mortgage.

Re: Maybe getting rid of your QA team was bad

#112

This point is brought up in the article but I think it is at the real heart of the issue. QA is almost always seen as a 'cost center' by the business and upper management. I have a hypothesis that you never ought to work in a department that is seen as a 'cost center'. The bonuses, the recognition, and the respect always goes to the money makers. The cost center is the first place to get more work with less hands, ge…

I agree with the 'cost center' sentiment, but I'll try to add some nuance from my experience.

1) Some organizations have come to really value what QA/QC brings to the table. From my experience, this seems to be more visible in manufacturing than software. I speculate this is because software is more abstract by its very nature and waste is harder to track.

2) The really good QAs are those who really believe in its mission, rather than those who are looking for the path of least resistance.

Both of those underscore the value lies in organizations and individuals who really buy-in to the QA ethos. There are lots of examples of both who are simply going through the motions.

Re: Maybe getting rid of your QA team was bad

#113

The main problem with QA teams is the same problem with IT teams or even management. If they are doing their jobs well they appear to be doing nothing. This often creates a situation where people need to "justify" their jobs. Usually this happens due to an over reliance upon metrics (see Goodhart's Law) rather than understanding what the metrics are proxying and what the actual purpose of the job is. A bad QA team is…

> Shouldn't businesses be operating like the latter? Constantly training? There's a rampant cultural mind-virus that argues that 95%th percentile is somehow tons of work (rather than a lack of unforced mistakes), so everyone just writes it off. It's on full display at this very site. Just look on any post involving software quality, and read a bunch of comments suggesting widespread apathy from engineers. Obviously e…

Yeah it is weird that it is believed that there is a linear scale to work in and quality considering how well known pareto/power distributions are. These distributions are extremely prolific too. I mean we even codify that sentiment in the 80/20 rule or say that 20% of time is writing code and 80% is debugging it. What's interesting is this effect is scalable. Like you see this when comparing countries by population but the same distribution (general shape) exists when looking at populations of states/regions/cities (zooming in for higher resolution) for any given country or even down to the street level.

> Obviously every situation is different, but people seem to be pretty okay with relinquishing agency on these things and just going along with whatever local maxima their org operates in. It's not totally their fault, but they're not blameless either.

I agree here, to the letter. I don't blame low level employees for maximizing their local optima. But there's two main areas (among many) that just baffles me. The first is when this is top down. When a CEO and board are hyper focused on benchmarks rather than the evaluation. Being unable to distinguish the two (benchmarks and metrics are guides, not answers). The other is when you have highly trained and educated people actively ignoring this situation. To have an over-reliance on metrics and refusing to acknowledge that metrics are proxies and considering the nuances that they were explicitly trained to look for and is what meaningfully distinguishes them from less experienced people. I've been trying to coin the term Goodhart's Hell to describe this more general phenomena because I think it is a fairly apt and concise description. The general phenomena seems prolific, but I agree that the blame has higher weight to those issuing orders. Just like a soldier is not blameless for their participation in a war crime but the ones issuing the orders are going to receive higher critique due to the imbalance of power/knowledge.

Ironically I think we need to embrace the chaos a bit more. But that is rather in recognizing that ambiguity and uncertainty is inescapable rather than abandonment of any form of metric all together. I think modern society has gotten so good at measuring that we often forget that our tools are imprecise whereas previously the imprecision was so apparent that it was difficult to ignore. One could call this laziness but considering its systematic I'm not sure that's the right word.

Re: Maybe getting rid of your QA team was bad

#114
post #56

I worked at two companies 15-20 years ago that invested in top-tier QA teams. They were worth their weight in gold. The products were world class because the QA team were fantastic at finding bugs we developers didn't think of looking for because we were too close to the problem. We are too used to looking at the happy path. One key attribute to both companies is that it was dictated from on high that the QA team had…

I've seen QA/QE greatness and it was similar to how you describe. A different chain of command for deciding if releases are certified for production. Different incentive structures as well. Not to mention, at one recent employer, the QE team wrote an enormous amount of code to perform their tests - It was more LOC than the modules being tested/certified.

So how was QA incentivized?

Re: Maybe getting rid of your QA team was bad

#116
post #103

At the start of my career (late 70s), I worked at IBM (Hursley Park) in Product Assurance (their version of QA). We wrote code and built hardware to test the product that was our area of responsibility (it was a word processing system). We wrote test cases that our code would drive against the system under test. Any issues we would describe in general terms to the development team -- we didn't want them to figure out…

> When I've worked for organizations without QA teams, I introduce the concept of "sniff tests". This is a short (typically 1 hour) test session where anybody in the company / department is encouraged to come and bash on the new feature.

We call those bug-bashes where we work, and they're also typically very productive in terms of defects discovered!

It's especially useful since during development of small features, it's usually just us programmers testing stuff out, which may not actually reflect how the end users will use our software.

Re: Maybe getting rid of your QA team was bad

#117

The main problem with QA teams is the same problem with IT teams or even management. If they are doing their jobs well they appear to be doing nothing. This often creates a situation where people need to "justify" their jobs. Usually this happens due to an over reliance upon metrics (see Goodhart's Law) rather than understanding what the metrics are proxying and what the actual purpose of the job is. A bad QA team is…

> This often creates a situation where people need to "justify" their jobs. On DevOps teams I see this constantly. Usually the best-compensated or most senior "Ops" guy or whatever they're called at the company spends a lot of his time extinguishing fires that were either entirely of his own creation/incompetence, which makes it look like he's "doing something." You automate away the majority of the toil there and th…

That's a fantastic example of what I'm trying to describe. It's kinda like thinking hours worked is directly proportional to widgets produced. There certainly are jobs and situations where this relationship holds (can't sell widgets if you aren't manning the store or can't produce turn crank widgets if the crank isn't being turned). But modern world widgets don't work that way and are more abstract. Sometimes fewer hours creates more widgets, sometimes the reverse. But widget production is now stochastic and especially in fields where creativity and brain power are required. (Using widgets for generalization -- in the economic sense--, insert any appropriate product or ask and I'll clarify)

Re: Maybe getting rid of your QA team was bad

#118

This might be my personal experience, but I've never encountered a QA team that actually writes the tests for engineering. I have only had QA teams that wrote "test plans" and executed them manually, and in rarer cases, via automated browser / device tests. I consider these types of tests to be valuable, but less so than "unit tests" or "integration tests". With this model, I have found that the engineering team ends…

FWIW, I have seen that same model have some success, provided management is willing to stand-up for QA. When QA isn't actively writing tests, they can still provide some balance against human biases that tend toward following the easiest path. In these cases, QA provides an objective viewpoint and backstop to cost and schedule pressures that might lead to bad decisions. This might be most valuable on safety-critical code, but I suppose it can still apply at various levels of risk.

I've seen where this has went poorly as QA was slowly eroded. It became easier and easier to justify shoddy testing practices. Low-probability events don't come around often by their very nature and it can create complacency. I've seen some aerospace applications have some close calls related to shortcomings in QA integration; in those cases, luck saved the day, not good development practices.

Re: Maybe getting rid of your QA team was bad

#119

This might be my personal experience, but I've never encountered a QA team that actually writes the tests for engineering. I have only had QA teams that wrote "test plans" and executed them manually, and in rarer cases, via automated browser / device tests. I consider these types of tests to be valuable, but less so than "unit tests" or "integration tests". With this model, I have found that the engineering team ends…

I work with the regulated drug development industry, and believe there is a useful and important distinction between Quality Control (QC) and Quality Assurance (QA). I wonder if perhaps this distinction would be useful to software quality too.

QC are the processes that ensure a quality product: things like tests, monitoring, metrology, audit trails, etc. No one person or team is responsible for these, rather they are processes that exist throughout.

QA is a role that ensures these and other quality-related processes are in place and operating correctly. An independent, top level view if possible. They may do this through testing, record reviews, regular inspections and audits, document and procedure reviews, analyzing metrics.

Yes, they will probably test here and there to make sure everything is in order, but this should be higher level - testing against specifications, acceptability and regulatory, perhaps some exploratory testing, etc.

Critically they should not be the QC process itself: rather they should be making sure the QC process is doing its job. QA's value is not in catching that one rare bug (though they might), but in long term quality, stability, and consistency.

Re: Maybe getting rid of your QA team was bad

#120

This point is brought up in the article but I think it is at the real heart of the issue. QA is almost always seen as a 'cost center' by the business and upper management. I have a hypothesis that you never ought to work in a department that is seen as a 'cost center'. The bonuses, the recognition, and the respect always goes to the money makers. The cost center is the first place to get more work with less hands, ge…

> QA is almost always seen as a 'cost center' by the business and upper management Well everything involved in making a product is seen as a cost, that includes the entire development team - QA, Developers, Devops, PM ....

No. That’s not actually how most orgs break it down. R&D, marketing, sales is “bringing new business” so are profit centers. This means their budget grows with revenue. Manufacturing, QA, IT and service are cost centers so get squeezed year-over-year even if revenue is flat.
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