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Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

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Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#131

Post by coldtea »

JadeNB wrote: post #4
bell-cot wrote: post #2

Immediate Reaction: Um, yes? Only the naive, self-deluding, and techno-utopians would have expected otherwise. Vs. an experienced teller from a well-run 1950's podunk bank could tell you that no security technology is worth crap if the managers don't actually care, or are crooked themselves.

> Immediate Reaction: Um, yes? Only the naive, self-deluding, and techno-utopians would have expected otherwise. Vs. an experienced teller from a well-run 1950's podunk bank could tell you that no security technology is worth crap if the managers don't actually care, or are crooked themselves. If one isn't trained as (or thinking as) a scientist, then I think it's easy to miss the importance of documenting expected r…

>If one isn't trained as (or thinking as) a scientist, then I think it's easy to miss the importance of documenting expected results. (...) (For example, in this particular context, if one wants to argue against police claims that body-cams offer sufficient accountability, being able to argue from specific cases where the accountability has been subverted is much more likely to be useful than arguing from a general feeling that they won't be used properly.)

That would only matter if it was a matter of "better argument" setting the issue.

Whereas it's a matter of power balance: those in power want the police on their side, and the police wants less oversight.

Though the parent does not "argue against police claims that body-cams offer sufficient accountability".

I think they're rather pointing that the accountability they offer in "optimal use", don't matter if police chiefs don't care how they're used/bypassed/workaround-ed/and so on, and this is allowed to have minimal impact on the officers and them.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#132

Post by greedo »

waihtis wrote: post #109
danaris wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's put this in perspective. Something like that might happen once or twice every few decades . In the country . Meanwhile, the abuses the police are perpetrating, in many cities, are happening on a monthly basis (or more often). Even if we stipulate that we need someone capable of dealing with the looter horde, we don't need that capability to be in the same hands as the people who are handing out traffic tickets…

your statement is easily proven to be total BS by a single press release: https://corporate.target.com/press/statement/2023/09/target-...

You do realize that this has been shown to be absolutely false? That losses due to shoplifting were used as BS justifications to shut down stores?

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/06/business/walgreens-shopli...

https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/us-retail-l...

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#133

Post by FireBeyond »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #115
lannisterstark wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>yeah, that's what we want, 3rd parties having access to SSN's, addresses, psychiatric details, etc. ?? This already can happen by default for a LOT of people. I work as a subcontractor for a federal contractor in healthcare, and I can see all of them if I wanted to. We just don't.

> I work as a subcontractor for a federal contractor in healthcare, and I can see all of them if I wanted to. We just don't. I also work in healthcare, I'd like to see you make that request. edit: To draw an analogy. you may work for a credit bureau but if you start requesting records for celebrities you're not going to be working there for very long. I've _built_ the systems put in place to limit and monitor for the…

Then you would know that HIPAA allows for one subset of the above, health information to be shared for treatment purposes even without patient authorization, as long as reasonably safeguarded.

I'm not saying that encapsulates everything that person says. But "reasonable safeguards" absolutely include a lot of the things you say are unacceptable.

I worked for a company that built claims benefits management systems, including one for SAG-AFTRA. Notably, that one, because they were about the only customer who was absolutely militant about lockdown of access to data (because it would show celebrity healthcare claims).

Actually, the biggest challenge we had was from our customers wanting to do data mining that was federally illegal (like looking at familial healthcare data to determine predisposition for a covered person for a certain condition).

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#134

Post by coldtea »

master-lincoln wrote: post #46
dcsommer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Transparency" in Congress has lead to grandstanding and posturing to cameras, at the expense of the necessary compromises and deals that could otherwise happen.

If that is true, the issue is in the egos of people making deals

The don't grandstand because of "egos" but because they have things to win from that (like press coverage, voter sympathies, money and deals from opponents of the issues they grandstand against, and so on).

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#135

Post by coldtea »

paxys wrote: post #19
Eumenes wrote: post #9

I want elected officials to wear body cameras too

How many hours of C-Span have you watched in your life? Detailed minutes of Congress proceedings from like 1800 are available for you to peruse if you'd like. Transparency isn't the problem – everything is happening fully out in the open.

Those are the parts of the process that matter absolutely less.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#136

Post by greedo »

wavemode wrote: post #105

I'm just going to give my personal opinion - I think this article does a great job of arguing, in a somewhat roundabout way, that the NYPD has failed to create proper accountability through the release of body camera footage. It really makes no sense that all body cam footage is not automatically public record in the case of the death of the civilian. But at the same time, it does a poor job of arguing that the two r…

In both shootings, the officers didn't follow standard procedure (let the ESU take over the situation), and instead went all Rambo on the victims. Then failed to render aid after they pumped dozens of rounds into each victim. Or they let had a dog handler attack a suspect (killing him), then laughed about "getting a bite."

All three of these cases described are disgusting instances of police overreach and failure.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#137

Post by coldtea »

paxys wrote: post #44
lotsofpulp wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are literally closed door legislative sessions that are not transparent. Plus the adage “business is done on the golf course”.

So you want all elected officials to wear a camera 24x7? Because hey, they could be doing business while taking a shit? Better keep it on at night as well, because we want to see the face of whoever they're screwing. Here's a better idea – elect people who can be trusted.

>So you want all elected officials to wear a camera 24x7?

Yes.

>Because hey, they could be doing business while taking a shit?

Sucks to be them. If they're shy about it, they could always not get elected.

Though, joking aside, you don't have to bring in the "slippery slope" argument. As long as they don't talk to anyone while taking a shit, they could be allowed to close the camera.

It's enough that they have to have it open whenever they make any political discussion and anything that relates to their position and role.

Not when they shit or order a latte. And if they do have such a discussion while ordering a latte, and not have it recorded, then it should be grounds for them being ejected.

>Here's a better idea – elect people who can be trusted.

And how's that been working out?

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#138

Post by kevinventullo »

mantas wrote: post #83
tylerdinner wrote: post #61

They're public servants. That footage should be public property. Just like "this call may be monitored for blah blah", your actions as a cop should be monitored by the public. Maybe we should have local citizens watching/reviewing body cam footage 24/7 to make sure cops are doing their job correctly. It's also job creation. Edit: obviously there are some confidentiality issues, so only certain folks should have that…

Yeah, some confidentiality issues.. I'm pretty sure such system would be abused. To leak footages of low situation in peoples' lives. To make sure cops enforce rules by the letter even if situation is objectively silly on the spot. To get dirt on cops by logging mistakes which everybody does. That's like requiring screensharing + camera on for remote workers 100% of the time. It sucks.

Remote tech workers aren't expected to occasionally assault or kill people as part of carrying out their duties.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#139

Post by bitcharmer »

gtmitchell wrote: post #71

We're trying to use technology to solve a legal / political issue, which predictably ineffective results. Unfortunately, I don't even think improved state oversight will help until the underlying issue of qualified immunity is addressed. The current legal framework in the US literally rewards police officers for being ignorant of the law.

I have no idea why you're getting down voted. The amount of BS and straight out criminal conduct cops can get away with due to immunity is sickening.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#140

Post by greedo »

kkielhofner wrote: post #120
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #52

Watching police body camera footage has given me much more appreciation for the tough job police have. I can't imagine having people actively try to kill me in my day-to-day job as a software engineer.

It's been really interesting to watch the rise of dedicated police body cam YouTube Channels. There are TONS of them and they often have millions of subscribers. They more-or-less paint two pictures: 1) Wow, this job is TERRIBLE. People doing stuff like committing a crime on video, going on a high speed chase, crashing into multiple cars and injuring people, finally crashing the car into a tree, shooting at the polic…

You get to see the videos the police want you to see; the videos that reinforce the idea that cops are in a continual state of absolute danger despite all the occupational studies that show it's a relatively safe job. Copaganda...
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