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US agency will not reinstate $900M subsidy for Starlink

reuters.com

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Re: US agency will not reinstate $900M subsidy for Starlink

#711

Maybe a dumb take but I’d really like for the population to earn an ownership stake in the company for providing subsidies. I don’t know much about subsidies but it seems like it would be in the best interest of the population to be able to have an ownership stake in the companies that are providing a head start through monetary or policy subsidizing. Can someone tell me if there is a way for the US to recoup subsidy…

We the people recoup the subsidy money in non-monetary rewards. Culture is becoming so focused on only the money: I guess because capitalism appears to optimise for the single dimension of dollars so that is all we see. Let's not forget the value of what we are buying: called "consumer surplus" in economics. So often commenters seem to focus on the dollars or sometimes the negative externalities, but completely forge…

It’s funny how these corporations can hoover up billions of taxpayer dollars and only care about cold hard cash, but as soon as someone suggests that perhaps the people in whose name those subsidies are granted should get an ownership stake in the corporations receiving those subsidies if only to have a sliver of control into what those companies do with said subsidies, all of a sudden the guitar is whipped out, and people start singing Kumbaya because “it’s not all about the money.”

I want to make a counterproposal that should be perfectly in tune with that philosophy:

How about instead of receiving billions in subsidies, these corporations do the funding themselves and provide broadband internet to these rural communities at no cost?

Let’s not forget the value these corporations buy, which they call “goodwill” in economics.

So often, corporations seem to focus on the dollars or sometimes the negative externalities but completely forget what they receive that isn’t measured in dollars: in this case, provide a service to the society they benefit so much from.

Re: US agency will not reinstate $900M subsidy for Starlink

#712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically now 15/16th of the money goes into a void to never actually get service to anyone.

Anecdotally, my dad lives in a rural area with no cable/DSL broadband available. Cellular broadband only got him 10-15 Mbps. He was excited when Starlink was available. I think he was pretty early on the preorder list. Once he finally got access to Starlink (Feb 2022) the speeds were close to the advertised ~100 Mbps. Now the price has increased and on average he's back to getting like 15-20 Mbps down. Luckily, the E…

"and said that service should be available in a couple of months"

Thats telcom speak for "the check is in the mail".

Re: US agency will not reinstate $900M subsidy for Starlink

#713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not what they said. If your ISP already took millions and didn't do what they said they would last time, that should disqualify them for another grant. >because they cannot afford to lay dozens of miles of fiber in order to serve a hundred households? You want to keep us country folk in the dark ages? Because that’s what it sounds like. Sounds like starlink may make more sense for your home and community than f…

They never qualified it as taking millions and not building out; the only qualifier included was not building out for a decade, which includes my ISP. My ISP has applied for these funds to bring fiber to my property. The original statement asserts they should not be allowed to receive funding. You seem to feel the same way, unless you genuinely believe that Starlink is in any way comparable to fiber. To be clear, it…

I can see that reading. I took it the other way given the larger context of concern about paying providers like starlink for service that will never be delivered.

I dont think starlink is the same as fiber, but I also dont think fiber is a human right or even relevant for most people given a reasonable alternative.

Re: US agency will not reinstate $900M subsidy for Starlink

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, my tiny rural co-op ISP should barred from getting one of these, because they cannot afford to lay dozens of miles of fiber in order to serve a hundred households? You want to keep us country folk in the dark ages? Because that’s what it sounds like. Laying fiber requires a small crew, and they don’t work for free. My driveway alone is over a 1/4 mile (400m), and it will take them a day to lay and terminate my br…

I live in a small EU country, and we had the same issues here.... we solved them by municipalities building fiber (usually when (re)building the roads, because it's cheaper then) and ISPs just renting it out. There's actually EU fuding for that and ISPs aren't forced to invest where they don't want to (but have to pay rent to the municipality).

Don’t bother. I used to live in a small EU country as well.

Even in the tiny rural village I lived in the last couple of years before I moved to the US, they did pretty much what you’re talking about (with the details being slightly different). Still, in true US fashion, this problem is deemed “uniquely American” and thus can’t benefit from the plethora of wheels invented overseas to solve this issue.

In my case, the fiber was paid for 50% by the municipality and 50% by a group of ISPs accessible for any ISP that would like to offer services, only realized if at least x amount of households would sign a promise they’d sign up for a contract with one of the ISPs for at least a year once infrastructure was completed.

This was easily accomplished because the ISPs offered a €30/month 1Gbps symmetrical connection in an area with shitty sub-10Mbps DSL that was at least twice that price and expensive asymmetrical DOCSIS at more than triple that price.

Here in the US, I’m in a rural area where the “best option” is 1Gbp down/20Mbp up at 4x that price.

Also, don’t underestimate how much people in the US hate taxes and governments spending money on useful things. My area has a volunteer firefighter department that cannot handle the entire area and has been trying to expand its tiny little footprint for the last decade.

Aside from the lack of equipment, the firefighters can’t even park at their fire station and instead have to park at a paid parking spot.

Just last month, there was a ballot initiative to raise the property taxes by $0.02, averaging to an annual property tax increase of a few dollars, so that they could fund the much-needed expansion of the fire station.

Of course, it failed. If the county were willing to fund fiber for the community here, there would be riots. Still, at the same time, everyone is always bitching about the internet and the lack of any cellular signal from any of the carriers.

Re: US agency will not reinstate $900M subsidy for Starlink

#715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oceans are only a defense if you can float a navy on them. The British Islands got invaded a couple of times... until they built a big navy. Having two oceans is great, but now you need at least two fleets. Nukes are only worth something if you have a lot of them and can credibly delivery them in multiple ways. Now you need subs, long-range bombers and the fighters to protect them, and missile silos. Now add in relia…

> Now you need subs, long-range bombers and the fighters to protect them, and missile silos. The role of the long-range bombers in the nuclear triad is heavily questioned. It is not quite certain that you "need" them.

You need them anyway because almost 100% of the time you’ll be dropping conventional ordnance / paratroopers / perhaps drones in future.

Re: US agency will not reinstate $900M subsidy for Starlink

#716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oceans are only a defense if you can float a navy on them. The British Islands got invaded a couple of times... until they built a big navy. Having two oceans is great, but now you need at least two fleets. Nukes are only worth something if you have a lot of them and can credibly delivery them in multiple ways. Now you need subs, long-range bombers and the fighters to protect them, and missile silos. Now add in relia…

this is hyperbolic. there are various coastal defenses and naval deployments that are not nearly as intensive as you describe. the "crazy dictator" theory is a conjuring of the govt and media in service of empire. they are acquiring nukes because they are afraid of being invaded by us!

Not all crazy dictators are dangerous purely because they have nukes.

Some sponsor anti-US terrorism.

Some are chomping at the bit to invade Europe (Russia) or Taiwan (China).

Some are just nuts (North Korea).

But now that these nutjobs have nukes, they’re all the more dangerous.

Re: US agency will not reinstate $900M subsidy for Starlink

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is beyond parody to refer to "not giving money that was not earned" as acting in an "adversarial capacity". Your argument is completely detached from reality, and devoid of logic.

My argument is that perceptions matter more than reality. Disagreeing on the grounds that my argument is not reality is not a dismissal, but I certainly understand that you do not perceive things as such. You are only one anecdote out of many.

[deleted]

Re: US agency will not reinstate $900M subsidy for Starlink

#718
post #38

When applying for RDOF you say what service tier you are targeting and instead of shooting for the minimum 25/3, Starlink applied for 100/20. When they didn't reach those speeds[1], they were ineligible but not just because they didn't hit the required speeds on their existing network. There are more details here[2] but the jist is that Starlink bid to supply 100/20 internet to over half a million subscribers and the…

Starlink (and Musk in general) have been over-promising and under-delivering for years now. Starlink claimed 150Mbps back in 2020 and that speeds would double to 300Mbps by the end of 2021.[1] Instead, speeds have halved.[2] At this point, T-Mobile is likely serving more rural high speed internet customers with greater speeds (T-Mobile has 4.2M home internet customers and Ookla's stats show 34% to be rural for 1.4M;…

> Starlink (and Musk in general) have been over-promising and under-delivering for years now. Starlink claimed 150Mbps back in 2020 and that speeds would double to 300Mbps by the end of 2021.[1] Instead, speeds have halved.[2]

How dare they during a globally-disruptive pandemic?

Re: US agency will not reinstate $900M subsidy for Starlink

#719
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s cheap and easy to fill the night sky with satellites, the obvious implication is that it will also be cheap and easy to do astronomy from space, and your “extremely precious and expensive” telescope time could be on a satellite outside the atmosphere in the first place. This is an entirely transitory issue and instead of trying to deprive people of internet access, astronomers should be working together on la…

> obvious implication is that it will also be cheap and easy to do astronomy from space That's so beyond false it's difficult to even respond to. Do you understand the size of the telescopes, both optical and radio? Do you understand the complexity of space-based instruments like the James Webb and Hubble telescopes?

The complexity of Webb is almost entirely a consequence of the limitations of its launch platform. You have absolutely no conception of what a post-Starship world is going to look like.

Re: US agency will not reinstate $900M subsidy for Starlink

#720
post #62

If the goal is to get levels of performance that Starlink cannot provide, then this makes sense? Odd that they'd include comments about Starship in it, though. That doesn't seem like a requirement for continued development of Starlink and seems very speculative. There could be details on that aspect that I'm missing though.

An FCC commissioner indicates that the FCC is yoinking the award because it thinks SpaceX won't hit the 2025 targets, yet many other award recipients have no service and no rollout and no speeds to even measure: > What good is an agreement to build out service by 2025 if the FCC can, on a whim, hold you to it in 2022 instead? In 2022, many RDOF recipients had deployed no service at any speed to any location at all, a…

This is all nonsense.

For starters, last year (when this initial decision was made), a total of 22 applicants defaulted (i.e., didn’t meet the requirements)[0].

Some didn’t get their funding in order, others didn’t get their ETC certification arranged in time, others didn’t provide a viable proposal, and some withdrew their bid.

SpaceX falls in the latter category.

It’s important to understand that throughout the process, viability and progress are looked at, and rightly so; we’re talking about billions of dollars in taxpayer monies, and it would be silly to only look at the deadline and go “Whelp, you didn’t make it, guess the money is gone now.” Particularly when clawing back the money would be very cumbersome with someone notorious for not paying their bills and what they owe.

There are a couple of minimum requirements; for this debate and simplicity, I’ll highlight the minimum speed, which is 25/3Mbps.

You could’ve bid to provide service at that minimum level, but you also could bid for a higher speed tier (the speeds are divided into different tiers)[1].

Bidding a higher tier comes with a higher amount of subsidies, but it also means you need to meet the requirements of that higher tier. There is no “Oh well, just give me the subsidies of the lower tier”; you either meet the requirements tied to your bid or you don’t.

SpaceX made a bid for the “Above Baseline” tier, which requires them to provide 100/20Mbps.

There are a couple of ways the FCC tries to evaluate if the applicant can comply with the FCC requirements.

For one, they look at the technology the applicant said they would use. Mature and more reliable technologies will provide a clearer picture than newer and less reliable technologies, of course. I don’t think anyone here will argue that LEO satellites can provide the same consistency and quality in experience as fiber, for example.

They also look at historical achievements, especially concerning newer technology such as LEO satellites. Most other applicants don’t use LEO satellites but instead use fiber, for example.

Whether the fiber equipment is in use in RDOR areas or not is irrelevant; if the applicant says they’ll use the same equipment they’re operating in a different region, you can pretty much expect the same performance.

Starlink’s performance has been declining, with upload already falling well below 20Mbps.

Another part they look at is the long-form applications by the applicant (i.e., their plan for achieving it all). If the strategies aren’t realistic or based on predictions and assumptions that rely too much on unlikely positive outcomes, they are not considered reliable.

Again, it’s easier to put a shovel in the dirt than it is to launch rockets, so the historical performance of laying the infrastructure is going to look different depending on the technology used.

The fact of the matter is that Starlink is still too much of a question mark in a lot of points and not performing as expected and required, coupled with customers needing to purchase a $600 dish[2] and the FCC is rightfully going to wonder if it’s all achievable or not and if they money they manage is being put to good use.

That’s why, back in August of 2022, when the original decision was made, they summed it up as such[3]:

> The Bureau has concluded its review of LTD Broadband’s (LTD) and Starlink’s long form applications. LTD proposes to deploy gigabit fiber to 475,616 estimated locations in 11 states.64 Starlink, relying upon a nascent LEO satellite technology and the ability to timely deploy future satellites to manage recognized capacity constraints while maintaining broadband speeds to both RDOF and non- RDOF customers, seeks funding to provide 100/20 Mbps low latency service to 642,925 estimated locations in 35 states. The Bureau has determined that, based on the totality of the long-form applications, the expansive service areas reflected in their winning bids, and their inadequate responses to the Bureau’s follow-up questions, LTD and Starlink are not reasonably capable of complying with the Commission’s requirements. The Commission has an obligation to protect our limited Universal Service Funds and to avoid extensive delays in providing needed service to rural areas, including by avoiding subsidizing risky proposals that promise faster speeds than they can deliver, and/or propose deployment plans that are not realistic or that are predicated on aggressive assumptions and predictions. We observe that Ookla data reported as of July 31, 2022 indicate that Starlink’s speeds have been declining from the last quarter of 2021 to the second quarter of 2022, including upload speeds that are falling well below 20 Mbps. Accordingly, we deny LTD’s and Starlink’s long-form applications, and both are in default on all winning bids not already announced as defaulted. Because LTD has defaulted on its remaining winning bids, we also dismiss as moot LTD’s petition for reconsideration of the Bureau’s denial of its request for additional time to obtain an ETC designation in Nebraska and North Dakota.

Remember that by this time, SpaceX had hitched this wagon to their Starship configuration, abandoning the Falcon[4].

By now, when the FCC was looking if they should reconsider, the Starship program wasn’t doing so hot, only reaffirming their decision of last year.

0: https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-over-8m-fines-agai...

1: https://www.fcc.gov/auction/904 under Fact Sheet

2: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-386140A1.pdf

3: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-22-848A1.pdf

4: https://spacenews.com/spacex-goes-all-in-on-starship-configu...

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