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Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

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Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#31

Post by irobeth »

jncfhnb wrote: post #30
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense. For one, a large component of real-time games is mechanics and execution. Also, the idea of being able to mindlessly "flowchart" a real-time game at a competitive level is absurd. It assumes a non-interactive opponent. If it was true there would be no such thing as yomi. There are also a lot of other fundamental differences around resource management, opponent interaction, etc. They are only simi…

Oh please. You can absolutely flow chart fighting games. That is in fact the entire concept behind combos- sequences of moves that your opponent can’t do anything during outside of more modern combo breaker mechanics. Yeah there’s niche dynamic considerations for making these combos work for slightly different distances and weights and heights and power meters and whatever. But for 99% of the player base you’re going…

> That is in fact the entire concept behind combos- sequences of moves that your opponent can’t do anything during outside of more modern combo breaker mechanics.

You can flow chart combos, sure, but that's not the whole fighting game; most people who play fighting games competitively will tell you that knowledge of combo theory is maybe 20% of what makes you good at a game

The rest is a dance of turn-taking, knowing when you are in advantage or disadvantage state and behaving accordingly, and 'neutral' - your behavior during the times where you aren't performing a combo or being pressured by your opponent

Outside of advantage and disadvantage and neutral lies 'oki' - your behavior during the period where you have finished a combo, aimed at gaining advantage or at the very least, preventing disadvantage (by returning to neutral in a controlled form)

Samurai Showdown is an example of a fighting game with extremely limited combo/oki mechanics and a heavy emphasis on neutral play -- most characters have only 2 or 3 hit combos which anyone can perform and the entirety of the depth in its gameplay is inside 'neutral' - the spacing between characters, the choice of when to attack and when to defend, when to throw, when to parry, etc.

Blazblue is an example of a fighting game with an extremely deep combo system, every character has a unique archetype and mechanic, and combos can last tens of seconds, and set-ups to turn 'lost neutral' into 'lost neutral again' are abundant

The difference between a good combo and bad combo in Samurai Showdown can be like 5% of your life bar, meaning if you don't have 'good combos' then you might need to 'win neutral' 1 more time to win the match (compared to if you could perform good combos)

The difference between a good combo and bad combo in Blazblue is maybe 50% damage (2500 vs 4500) meaning you need to 'win neutral' maybe 3 more times than if you did a 'good combo' every time you 'won neutral'

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#32

Post by dclowd9901 »

cultureswitch wrote: post #9
BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #3

One thing that's very tricky about these kind of simplified visual explanations of fighting game mechanics is that you don't capture all the strategic implications of move properties. The visualizations make simple scenarios clear, for example if you block a sweep point blank (or whatever a highly punishable tekken equivalent would be, a snake edge or a hellsweep or whatever), then you are at advantage and can land a…

I think I follow the gist of what you're talking about and it doesn't sound all that advanced at all. Deliberately missing out getting blocked to make the opponent think they have an opening is not a particularly high level play in other games. It still baffles me that traditional 2D fighting games and Tekken in particular are so complex and that it is so hard to even pull off a specific move due to control schemes t…

This is why I always like soul calibur. The control language of the game is consistent across characters and when you go to perform a move, you generally understand what’s going to come, only variables like range, height and speed change (thanks to the dynamics of the weapons). Stances play a part too.

Probably considered “cute” to the fighting game community, I think it’s a great option for those of us who don’t care over the minutia of frame counting.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#33

Post by snarfy »

I don't like the flower petals to represent startup time. They show numbers for every other stat. They should just show 10 for a 10 frame jab, not two flowers.

And for the uninitiated, frame data is important to know what beats what. If they do a move that is -12 on block and you block it, a 10 frame jab is a guaranteed punisher, assuming they are in range. Conversely if it's +12 on block there is no move you can do that is safe and it's best to block or duck any follow up.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#35

Post by irobeth »

jncfhnb wrote: post #13
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had never thought of it as something closer to a fast-paced Magic, the Gathering Very confused how you got that impression from this article. The cards are a just a way to visualize information. Fighting games don't play like a fast-paced card game, they are fundamentally different.

Hmm no they kind of do. The basic insight with most fighting games is that once you are competent you know everything that opponent can do and the list of viable options is discrete and small with fairly standard flowcharts. Tekken is a bit more nebulous than this.

> once you are competent you know everything that opponent can do

This reads a little like saying "you are competent at chess when you know all the moves the pieces can make"

In Chess, knowing your opponent's available moves might make the difference between an absolute beginner and a 300 rated player

Knowing some opening theory might make the difference between 300 rating and 1000 rating

But I don't know that I'd call a 300 rated player 'competent', or even say that they 'know how to play' versus 'know the rules of Chess'

It's consistency in knowing what are good options and what are likely choices that makes a competent/good/great player in any game (most fighting games are perfect information, too!)

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#36

Post by jncfhnb »

orbital-decay wrote: post #24
jncfhnb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm no they kind of do. The basic insight with most fighting games is that once you are competent you know everything that opponent can do and the list of viable options is discrete and small with fairly standard flowcharts. Tekken is a bit more nebulous than this.

>once you are competent you know everything that opponent can do and the list of viable options is discrete and small with fairly standard flowcharts This can be applied to any high-skill competition, basically - from FPS to F-1.

Inevitably true on some level. Although I think card games and FGC share a deeper similarity on the number of discrete steps that one player will plan to execute ahead of time as a sequence.

I’ve long imagined a fighting game where rather than combos, the receiving player has an array of defensive options that vary from trying to mitigate the damage, roll out, or seize the initiative back after each hit more like a kind fu cinema fight. Make the whole damn thing a constant mind gamr

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#37

Post by ZephyrBlu »

jncfhnb wrote: post #30
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense. For one, a large component of real-time games is mechanics and execution. Also, the idea of being able to mindlessly "flowchart" a real-time game at a competitive level is absurd. It assumes a non-interactive opponent. If it was true there would be no such thing as yomi. There are also a lot of other fundamental differences around resource management, opponent interaction, etc. They are only simi…

Oh please. You can absolutely flow chart fighting games. That is in fact the entire concept behind combos- sequences of moves that your opponent can’t do anything during outside of more modern combo breaker mechanics. Yeah there’s niche dynamic considerations for making these combos work for slightly different distances and weights and heights and power meters and whatever. But for 99% of the player base you’re going…

> But for 99% of the player base you’re going to be best off learning a few bread and butter ideas and then executing on them without much variation

Yes, this is why it's not at all interesting to talk about things that apply to 99% of the playerbase. Because mindlessly spamming one thing really, really well is an effective strategy against the vast majority of the playerbase in any game.

If this is the level that you think about games at then yes, all games are very similar. The nuances in shape and feel of a game's meta are what make it different and interesting, but those only start coming into play at a pretty high level of competence relative to the rest of the playerbase. At least top 20%, probably more like top 5-10% or higher.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#38

Post by jncfhnb »

RomanAlexander wrote: post #21
jncfhnb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pulling off moves is very easy. Pulling off specific sequences of moves is not.

That's not true. Geese Howard's pretzel move is very difficult on its own. Even high level players mess up EWGFs. Complicate all this even further by playing in an arcade with a square gate. And not to mention the extreme moves like pentagram input from arcana hearts 3.

Much More the exception than the norm

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#39

Post by jncfhnb »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #37
jncfhnb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. You can absolutely flow chart fighting games. That is in fact the entire concept behind combos- sequences of moves that your opponent can’t do anything during outside of more modern combo breaker mechanics. Yeah there’s niche dynamic considerations for making these combos work for slightly different distances and weights and heights and power meters and whatever. But for 99% of the player base you’re going…

> But for 99% of the player base you’re going to be best off learning a few bread and butter ideas and then executing on them without much variation Yes, this is why it's not at all interesting to talk about things that apply to 99% of the playerbase. Because mindlessly spamming one thing really, really well is an effective strategy against the vast majority of the playerbase in any game. If this is the level that yo…

Shrug. Watch the finals of different game tourneys and see the best of the best and tell me it’s not bread dripping with butter still.

There are interesting edge cases that only the pros can make use of, but it’s still samey.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#40

Post by wodenokoto »

cultureswitch wrote: post #9
BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #3

One thing that's very tricky about these kind of simplified visual explanations of fighting game mechanics is that you don't capture all the strategic implications of move properties. The visualizations make simple scenarios clear, for example if you block a sweep point blank (or whatever a highly punishable tekken equivalent would be, a snake edge or a hellsweep or whatever), then you are at advantage and can land a…

I think I follow the gist of what you're talking about and it doesn't sound all that advanced at all. Deliberately missing out getting blocked to make the opponent think they have an opening is not a particularly high level play in other games. It still baffles me that traditional 2D fighting games and Tekken in particular are so complex and that it is so hard to even pull off a specific move due to control schemes t…

I played a lot of tekken 1, but never enough to join any tournaments (had one heard of any in the internet less early 90s)

But what I remember being very special about tekken was how easy and logical the moves where.

It was one button, one limb and more or less only buttons that controlled limbs involved in a move was used. It was quite easy to learn many moves without consulting the manual because they flowed well with the characters.

This was in stark contrast to street fighter and mortal combat where things were as cryptic as cheat codes.

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