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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#401

Post by Hawxy »

defrost wrote: post #372
sjy wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is addressed in the linked source, although that wouldn’t be obvious if you’re not familiar with Australian work health and safety law: > the re-emergence of silicosis in engineered stone workers is also due to a failure of compliance with existing WHS laws … PCBUs [persons conducting a business or undertaking, who are subject to WHS laws] have not done all that is reasonably practicable to eliminate or minimise…

The "ban" (proposed for July 2024 and after) is actually conditional upon the building industry getting their act together with respect to worker safety and compliance: National Dust Disease Taskforce Final Report - June 2021 https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/national-du... [PDF] https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2022... Page 11: (Recomendations ...) D) Commence the processes requ…

> is actually conditional upon the building industry getting their act together

I don't think this is correct. The SafeWork report (recommending a complete ban) superseded this health report, and the ministers appear to have aligned on the SafeWork recommendation.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#402

Post by Brian_K_White »

kortilla wrote: post #373
lostlogin wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but I don’t claim murder risk is overblown and run around badlands like I’m invincible.

Murder risk is negligible though. Especially if you aren’t directly involved in crime.

Murder risk is negligible because we do things about it.

My house has never burned down, therefor firemen, smoke alarms, and extinguishers are a scam. Got it.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#403

Post by DoItToMe81 »

hereme888 wrote: post #339
Hawxy wrote: post #169

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.

Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?

People are dying slow, painful and horrific deaths because fines have not worked to dissuade these companies. Bans are the only option left.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#404

Post by 10u152 »

gnfargbl wrote: post #387
Hawxy wrote: post #169

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.

The logic here is that if an industry can only be made safe with strict PPE standards, but the market dynamics make it difficult to ensure compliance with those standards, then it is OK to ban the industry. That seems a pretty concerning stance for small businesses. What's next? Ban microbreweries because they don't properly manage the risks of CO2 asphyxiation? Ban small-shop mechanics because they routinely get bra…

They’re not banning businesses. They’re banning a product which is causing deaths. Switch to a alternate product. It’s the same in your analogy of banning a toxic brake fluid.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#405

Post by defrost »

Hawxy wrote: post #401
defrost wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "ban" (proposed for July 2024 and after) is actually conditional upon the building industry getting their act together with respect to worker safety and compliance: National Dust Disease Taskforce Final Report - June 2021 https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/national-du... [PDF] https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2022... Page 11: (Recomendations ...) D) Commence the processes requ…

> is actually conditional upon the building industry getting their act together I don't think this is correct. The SafeWork report (recommending a complete ban) superseded this health report, and the ministers appear to have aligned on the SafeWork recommendation.

You may well be correct.

My goal was more to point out that two+ years ago a recommendation was made (as quoted above) and there's currently six months left on the clock for those changes recommended to be met.

SafeWork is likely to correct to conclude that the building industry has made no real strides in the past 24 months and won't do squat in the six months remaining.

This may also be a hammer drop intended to put the fear of lost revenue from upmarket kitched remodels into the actors and scare them into action in order to lift the ban.

That's a whole other level of real politik that sometimes plays behind the scenes .. carrots & sticks.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#406

Post by 10u152 »

Modified3019 wrote: post #379
Hawxy wrote: post #169

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.

Makes sense, this kind of work can have an extremely “toxic” anti-ppe culture that’s impossible to mitigate against without outright burning the industry to the ground. Fines and inspections are easy to dodge when everyone involved is trying to do so. Hell I work in agronomy and it’s hard enough getting seasonal helpers to wear earplugs when riding ATVs all day. Then there was an old supervisor from a former oil chan…

I work in the construction industry. We have about 1:10 ratio of “supervision” to contractors. Getting people to wear PPE is a constant, ongoing 12 hour a day battle. We kick about 1 person off site permanently, every day for something egregiously dumb. The contractor just sends them to another job. And of all the places I’ve worked, my current employer is one of the best, takes it very seriously.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#407

Post by rbanffy »

junaru wrote: post #370
kortilla wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminal liability is not “let the market forces duke it out” in any meaningful sense.

Your comments puts cheaper kitchen tables above potential lifelong worker health issues. No amount of 'criminal liability' will bring back loved ones.

Nothing will bring those people back. If that’s the only goal, then banning is also frivolous.

It’s also unclear whether there is a similar safe alternative, so banning one type of product might just shift the problem to a new toxic and dangerous material.

The only solution is to enforce safety regulations and/or come up with better ones. At one time, when I decided I’d sand a wall in my house, I ended up attaching a vacuum cleaner to my sander so that the dust wouldn’t go everywhere. Wearing the filter mask was also extremely uncomfortable, so it might be worth to design better breathing PPEs that are more human-friendly to drive acceptance up.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#408

Post by cm2187 »

10u152 wrote: post #404
gnfargbl wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic here is that if an industry can only be made safe with strict PPE standards, but the market dynamics make it difficult to ensure compliance with those standards, then it is OK to ban the industry. That seems a pretty concerning stance for small businesses. What's next? Ban microbreweries because they don't properly manage the risks of CO2 asphyxiation? Ban small-shop mechanics because they routinely get bra…

They’re not banning businesses. They’re banning a product which is causing deaths. Switch to a alternate product. It’s the same in your analogy of banning a toxic brake fluid.

It’s like banning chemical products because they are causing death if not handled properly. We would not have an industrialised world if we went that way.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#409

Post by rbanffy »

cyanydeez wrote: post #380
kortilla wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminal liability is not “let the market forces duke it out” in any meaningful sense.

in capitalism, criminal liability is still a cost.

It doesn’t help when the affected workers are easy and cheap to replace.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#410

Post by rvba »

hereme888 wrote: post #339
Hawxy wrote: post #169

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.

Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?

A lot of manual workers ignore protective equipment even after training and while constantly supervised
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