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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

391–400 of 542 posts

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#391
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pass a law giving a class of inspector the right to enter premises where building works appear to be progressing. You strictly limit what they are permitted to observe and record and require recording of reasonable suspicion. Refusal to grant entry is itself an offence. Approaches like this would work but are also a huge can of worms.

>You pass a law giving a class of inspector the right to enter premises In most countries (and I'd expect to include Australia), there cannot be a blanket invasion of privacy - and it'd require a court order. The amount of paper would would be ridiculous, then what if I do that on my own, or I used a cousin to do it for me, for free?

Like I said, can of worms. There are no easy solutions.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If unions have the funding to advocate for higher wages, even at other companies, wages in the industry will rise to remain competitive. Additionally unions can offer you support in workplace disputes, and so function as a kind of legal employment insurance, even when density in your workplace is low.

Wages in the US tech industry are some of the most competitive in the world. "Additionally unions can offer you support in workplace disputes," It also makes it really difficult to fire bad/incompetent workers.

Competitive with who? Tech companies are some of the largest in the world right now.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The good news is you can do both of those things and still be a member of a union! And additionally, there's lots of evidence to suggest that union members get paid more https://www.australianunions.org.au/factsheet/union-members-... Union penetration is decidedly low in tech, and tech companies coincidentally have some of the highest cash reserves of any industry. People in tech often think, why should I join my uni…

"Union penetration is decidedly low in tech, and tech companies coincidentally have some of the highest cash reserves of any industry. People in tech often think, why should I join my union, I already get paid a lot! Bosses love that attitude." If unions are anything like they are in the US, you lose your individual bargaining power in favor of the collective. IE: if you want a raise as a software developer, everyone…

If your union agreement contains insufficient levels for you to progress, that's a bad agreement. Collective bargaining leads to better wages on average.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#394

I work for one of the union organisations (the ACTU) that pushed for this ban. Software devs are notoriously anti-union. Software companies notoriously have huge cash reserves that didn't go into the pockets of those devs. Join your union. If you're in Australia you can start the process, here: https://www.australianunions.org.au/join/begin-join/#/

Solidarity brother, from a Professionals Australia member.

Solidarity forever!

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#395
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not use other materials? Modified acrylic or compact laminate? That will save lives.

Although good materials, acrylics and laminates are not quite as durable as engineered stone countertops. They tend to show more wear over time, and are more prone to damage from extreme heat etc. Some may consider the look and feel of stone to be more "premium". But of course they're cheaper and lighter and probably still cheaper than stone even if you end up replacing them a couple of times over the lifetime of the…

You can repolish an acrylic top and it looks brand new. Most professionals should only take an hour or two to do it.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#396
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pass a law giving a class of inspector the right to enter premises where building works appear to be progressing. You strictly limit what they are permitted to observe and record and require recording of reasonable suspicion. Refusal to grant entry is itself an offence. Approaches like this would work but are also a huge can of worms.

>You pass a law giving a class of inspector the right to enter premises In most countries (and I'd expect to include Australia), there cannot be a blanket invasion of privacy - and it'd require a court order. The amount of paper would would be ridiculous, then what if I do that on my own, or I used a cousin to do it for me, for free?

The customer would be made to sign a contract allowing random state inspection.

> what if I do that on my own, or I used a cousin to do it for me, for free?

You and your cousin could decide to go and mud wrestle crocodiles, but we'd still ban opening an amusement park where that was offered to members of the public.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Official statistics (in Spain, which is where I'm from and have read them) don't agree with that. Plenty of construction workers and various related workers, like plumbers, etc. have died from asbestos. As an anecdote, you could even die from asbestos from working at a TV station... The Spanish public TV station used asbestos as insulation in stages and apparently, when there were vibrations from loud sound, applause…

There are different varieties of asbestos. None are good for you, but some are far more deadly than others. Western European countries (including Spain, I am guessing) and Australia tended to use the most dangerous varieties of asbestos - crocidolite and amosite. By contrast, North America and ex-USSR countries used the less carcinogenic chrysotile.

While blue asbestos was used in some applications, the vast majority of asbestos in Australian homes is chrysolite.

There were (and are) still many mesothelioma and asbestos deaths in tradesmen building with chrysolite containing products here, as well as people whose only known exposure was renovation of houses containing it.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#398
post #169

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.

Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?

This doesn’t take into account the realities of people in that industry.

It’s highly fragmented, dominated by men and specifically younger men, who self-select for a high tolerance of risk and a low tolerance of rules.

By the time they find out that they’re not invulnerable and rules exist to protect them, it’s too late.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#399

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

I've worked previously as a firefighter, a lot of the stuff that we do can be considered high risk. PPE is incredibly important however there are several issues I have noticed while working with PPE.

1. PPE can get in the way of being efficient.

From personal experience this is one of the most painful things. Engineers design equipment to meet requirements. The people setting these requirements are often bureaucrats who have no knowledge of what it feels like to be doing the manual labor. Some of them may never have even handled any heavy machinery in their life - the end result is you end up with unergonomic tools. Since, the workers are not the ones paying for the tools, the upper management will select things that hit their own KPIs. Some how you are expected to hit unrealistic throughputs with tools that dont work well with your PPE. End result is most people will neglect PPE and find ways around it.

2. PPE upkeep

One has to keep equipment in good condition. Using boots with holes is not going to be a good idea. Corporate culture however is such that they make replacing PPE very painful, in part because PPE is ridiculously expensive in certain contexts. Good managers and supervisors will make sure their crew has safe equipment but often have to take the blame if they overspend. Lazy managers/supervisors will make it a nightmare if anything gets damaged. Unfortunately the number of lazy supervisors far outstrips good supervisors. This can result in things like black markets for PPEs.

3. Workplace culture

It can be "manly" to do things in an unsafe manner. This takes a lot of work to solve but the best way to solve it is by trying to inculcate a culture where people don't cause suffering for others just because they suffered. There is no need to "pay forward" a malpractice. If someone abused you earlier for conforming to something, that doesn't give you the right to abuse your junior. The problem is people who do this kind of change often go unnoticed.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To protect the workers we must fire them.

It's not like whatever the demand that the engineered stone currently fills suddenly disappears so those workers will be able to find other similar jobs.

My guess would be that number of kitchens that do not get build because engineered stone is not anymore available will be very low...

Or anything else. There is enough options around and enough supply for that.

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