Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 542 posts

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#371

Post by kortilla »

Incipient wrote: post #89
dylan604 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if this was an american decision, i'd suggest the natural stone lobby was better than the engineered stone lobby.

We really don't have the same overt paid lobbying here (aka bribery) that you have in the US. Don't get me wrong our politicians are just as morally bankrupt and self-serving, but it doesn't happen at the same coordinated scale.

Lobbying and bribery are not the same at all. Equivocating them severely downplays the seriousness of bribery.

Lobbying means someone is trying to influence the government through things as simple as advertising campaigns. Those exist in AU.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#372

Post by defrost »

sjy wrote: post #368
hereme888 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?

This is addressed in the linked source, although that wouldn’t be obvious if you’re not familiar with Australian work health and safety law: > the re-emergence of silicosis in engineered stone workers is also due to a failure of compliance with existing WHS laws … PCBUs [persons conducting a business or undertaking, who are subject to WHS laws] have not done all that is reasonably practicable to eliminate or minimise…

The "ban" (proposed for July 2024 and after) is actually conditional upon the building industry getting their act together with respect to worker safety and compliance:

National Dust Disease Taskforce Final Report - June 2021

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/national-du...

[PDF] https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2022...

Page 11: (Recomendations ...)

    D) Commence the processes required to implement a full ban on the importation of some or all engineered stone products if, by July 2024:

    – There is no measurable and acceptable improvement in regulatory compliance rates for the engineered stone sector as reported by jurisdictions; and

    - Evidence indicates preventative measures are not effectively protecting those working with engineered stone from silicosis and silica-associated diseases
In short - (We recommend to) Ban this stuff UNLESS building sector improves safety AND demonstrates effective change.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#373

Post by kortilla »

lostlogin wrote: post #294
repiret wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also that relatively few people are affected. That’s approximately one in 100,000 people, twice as many people in the United States were murdered in 2015. It is really easy to know nobody who died from asbestos.

Yeah, but I don’t claim murder risk is overblown and run around badlands like I’m invincible.

Murder risk is negligible though. Especially if you aren’t directly involved in crime.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#374

Post by xxs »

doingtheiroming wrote: post #329
xxs wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you do a surprise audit in a customers house?

You pass a law giving a class of inspector the right to enter premises where building works appear to be progressing. You strictly limit what they are permitted to observe and record and require recording of reasonable suspicion. Refusal to grant entry is itself an offence. Approaches like this would work but are also a huge can of worms.

>You pass a law giving a class of inspector the right to enter premises

In most countries (and I'd expect to include Australia), there cannot be a blanket invasion of privacy - and it'd require a court order. The amount of paper would would be ridiculous, then what if I do that on my own, or I used a cousin to do it for me, for free?

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#375

Post by AdamN »

kortilla wrote: post #364
rtpg wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be too glib but I think here the reasoning is that letting market forces duke it out (even with fines and penalties) is considered to not be fast enough compared to the number of people whose health is being put at risk. Like here there are a bunch of people who have lung cancer now. And there's probably a bunch more who will get it from doing all the work up until now. And this has been in the news for a whil…

Criminal liability is not “let the market forces duke it out” in any meaningful sense.

That's exactly what it is. Criminal liability is a deterrent model with a very high bar that is usually used when other mechanisms are not scalable. The number of people determined to be criminally liable in a country like Australia for a labor offense is going to be very small and focused on the absolute worst offenders years after the offense.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#376

Post by andrewstuart »

cracrecry wrote: post #354

Ridiculous like everything politicians do. They could ban installation that is not precut with machines, or the usage of tools without dust handling but banning the entire field is just crazy. With today technology you can 3d scan the dimensions, water cut with automatic machines and only minor adjustments need to be done on site.

Sure. And asbestos is safe if handled correctly. But it never works out that way. Costs are cut. Companies want to make more profit.

And who pays? The low paid workers.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#377

Post by globular-toast »

bowsamic wrote: post #341
globular-toast wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But still the "real men" on UK building sites and trades shun PPE. It's just a dumb man thing. I often wonder if they think every day there's a chance of a woman seeing and thinking how manly and hot they are for not even needing wimpy protection. Here the construction vehicles have a green flashing light on to indicate that the user has a seat belt on. They get round that by just buckling up then sitting on the belt…

Perhaps, though still my experience seeing building sites in the UK still seems to have way more health and safety and risk assessments. As I said in the other comment, in Germany it's not rare at all to see road workers with heavy machinery, fumes, and dust, who are wearing no ear protection, no goggles, no mask, and no hard hat. That would be an extremely rare sight in the UK.

I was recently in Malta and saw a bloke in shorts and t-shirt start angle grinding into the pavement in the middle of a busy road. Definitely would never see that in the UK.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#378

Post by xxs »

Reason077 wrote: post #332
xxs wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polishing, sanding concrete will produce tons of tiny dust particles just as cutting the stone.

Yes, but the dust from concrete or natural stone doesn’t seem to be anything like as dangerous as the dust from engineered stone. (You still should use PPE and avoid inhaling it, of course!)

Don't know about 2000+ grit polishing concrete, it's likely to be wet sanded but still. The particles would be a lot finer.

The 'engineered' stone is just very fine dust along with binders.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#379

Post by Modified3019 »

Hawxy wrote: post #169

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.

Makes sense, this kind of work can have an extremely “toxic” anti-ppe culture that’s impossible to mitigate against without outright burning the industry to the ground. Fines and inspections are easy to dodge when everyone involved is trying to do so.

Hell I work in agronomy and it’s hard enough getting seasonal helpers to wear earplugs when riding ATVs all day. Then there was an old supervisor from a former oil change and tire repair shop job I had, who had hand shakes from nerve damage due to automotive chemical exposure, and he was actually comparatively decent about PPE, especially for helpers.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#380

Post by cyanydeez »

kortilla wrote: post #364
rtpg wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be too glib but I think here the reasoning is that letting market forces duke it out (even with fines and penalties) is considered to not be fast enough compared to the number of people whose health is being put at risk. Like here there are a bunch of people who have lung cancer now. And there's probably a bunch more who will get it from doing all the work up until now. And this has been in the news for a whil…

Criminal liability is not “let the market forces duke it out” in any meaningful sense.

in capitalism, criminal liability is still a cost.
Post reply on HN