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My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

theguardian.com

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Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#61

Post by jchook »

Note that it's practically illegal for someone living in South Korea to publish anything positive about the DPRK (North Korea)[1][2][3].

> [Amnesty International] described the National Security Act as a tool to harass and arbitrarily prosecute individuals and civil society organizations who are peacefully exercising their rights to freedom of expression, opinion and association.

It's important to understand voices like this in the broader context of the Korean War, which is technically still ongoing, and manifests today largely as an economic and propaganda war, as well as an entrenched territorial stalemate.

DPRK "defectors" often get international media attention, and then their claims are surprisingly commonly debunked in following years[4].

For example, Yeonmi Park became famous in 2014, making startling claims about living in the DPRK— children being forced to eat mud, not taught basic math (even 1+1=2), and had no access to world maps or ice cream. Many of her claims were debunked, even by other defectors[5]. Despite her seemingly clear lack of credibility, many US media figures continue to host her for interviews.

Sometimes defectors even admit they lied after becoming internationally famous and publishing a best seller, such as Shin Dong Hyuk[6].

The claim of the OP's author (couldn't get recognition for my work in DPRK) is especially ironic for this reason. In South Korea and the West, there is a thriving media industry focusing on the harrowing stories of people from the North.

Also note, South Korea pays a reward of $860,000 to cooperating defectors[7], and has been accused of trafficking and forcing DPRK citizens to defect against their will[8][9]. When defectors arrive in South Korea, they are put through a rigorous interrogation, deprogramming, Christian indoctrination, and naturalization program at an institution called Hanawon. One defector noted, "At Hanawon, it seemed that I was being brainwashed again, even though I had arrived in freedom."

1. https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/south-korea-debat...

2. https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/05/28/south-korea-cold-war-rel...

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_(South_K...

4. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-k...

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeonmi_Park#Veracity_of_claims

6. https://www.businessinsider.com/a-north-korean-gulag-survivo...

7. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39170614

8. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/world/asia/north-korea-wa...

9. https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/8...

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#62

Post by wkat4242 »

opportune wrote: post #51
robertlagrant wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really interesting. I always balk against people talking about inequality with this sort of thing in mind: the problem isn't inequality, it's how good the low and average standards of living are, and whether they're improving. It requires no talent, only power, to take people's stuff and redistribute it. It requires talent and effort to create new things that raise the bar for everyone, and just as much to ma…

Humans are social creatures with an innate sense of “status”. Absolute material inequality is only one form of inequality. You can feed, clothe, and give iPhones to the very poor but if they are at the bottom of a very deep social hierarchy with no hope to climb out of it, that inequality is still going to cause a lot of problems. People might turn to a life of crime for lack of better options, or participate into a…

Yeah also compare western Europe to America. As we have much better welfare and higher taxes, income inequality is much lower here in Europe. And in particular violent crime is much much lower as a result.

I'm not saying going full communist is an option but all out everyone-for-themselves capitalism doesn't work either. And really why do people need to be able to have billions? They can never use it up in their lifetime anyway.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#63

Post by wegfawefgawefg »

duxup wrote: post #17
borbtactics wrote: post #14

This story reminds me that education is a privilege and I'm probably not enjoying it as much as I should.

I was a horrible college student when I was younger. For a variety of reasons. I quit school, got lucky, and fell into a good tech career. Many many years later after age 40 I was laid off, wanted a new career path / job, I took a few classes and eventually a bootcamp and changed careers. I was really nervous as far as how it would all play out knowing how terrible I was previously. It was completely different. The i…

Having been young more recently I can help you remember what you may have forgotten. Being young comes with a lot of stressors that take away from your agency, and your ability to see any positive outcome from effort. Whether that is relentless potential demand from a parent, inability to choose what to eat or do, or study, where to go, no car, no money, mate competition, etc. I found education to be very enjoyable in elementary school, then horrible in my teens, but very enjoyable in my early 20s when i had a bank account with even just 10k in it. Teachers treated me like shit in middle school by default, and in high school it was definitely harrassment. The material was often not rich enough to support the duration I was required to sit and stare at it. I was required to ask permission to urinate. The teachers may not have been intelligent enough to understand a persuasive argument in an essay. Math was the only consistently good outlier.

In university the worse a teacher ever was to me was bad or ambivalent, but the educational resources were so deep personal pursuit felt like it had infinite potential.

Im assuming at 40 years old these things have all been forgotten. Im sure the same is happening to me.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#64

Post by gwbas1c »

duxup wrote: post #17
borbtactics wrote: post #14

This story reminds me that education is a privilege and I'm probably not enjoying it as much as I should.

I was a horrible college student when I was younger. For a variety of reasons. I quit school, got lucky, and fell into a good tech career. Many many years later after age 40 I was laid off, wanted a new career path / job, I took a few classes and eventually a bootcamp and changed careers. I was really nervous as far as how it would all play out knowing how terrible I was previously. It was completely different. The i…

I think the biggest difference is feeling like you're in control of your life: Are you in college because someone told you to go, or did you go voluntarily?

I really wanted a break halfway through college, so I went on co-op. This forced me to go back (to college at the end of the co-op), and I never lost my status as a student (during the co-op). But, for a little more than 6 months, I was an independent adult, working, in charge of my life, at a place where I wanted to be.

School was so much easier when I went back.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#65

Post by adolph »

n4r9 wrote: post #2

It's always fascinating to hear about the cultural structures within North Korea. The image in my head is one where 5% are comfortable party officials and 95% are starving labourers. Of course that's not true: there are intellectuals and scientists in the middle, like in any other society. A related article was posted a few months ago regarding North Korean sci-fi. Also fascinating! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?…

You might be interested in or have already read the Inspector O series by “Frank Church.” To the degree it is accurate (or not) it was fascinating to think of all the things that a mostly stable but alien-to-me society must contain. Cops, municipal workers of all sorts, and the parallel world of a Communist party.

https://www.amazon.com/Corpse-Koryo-Inspector-Novel-Novels/d...

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#66

Post by the_af »

opportune wrote: post #51
robertlagrant wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really interesting. I always balk against people talking about inequality with this sort of thing in mind: the problem isn't inequality, it's how good the low and average standards of living are, and whether they're improving. It requires no talent, only power, to take people's stuff and redistribute it. It requires talent and effort to create new things that raise the bar for everyone, and just as much to ma…

Humans are social creatures with an innate sense of “status”. Absolute material inequality is only one form of inequality. You can feed, clothe, and give iPhones to the very poor but if they are at the bottom of a very deep social hierarchy with no hope to climb out of it, that inequality is still going to cause a lot of problems. People might turn to a life of crime for lack of better options, or participate into a…

> However, a greatly reduced disparity in living standards and material conditions does have positive social effects IMO. Consider that deaths of despair, poverty, and desperation are much higher under the Russian Federation than the USSR. I’m not saying that communism or socialism are good by any means, but I think there are real net benefits to low inequality sometimes even if they come at the expense of overall lower living standards.

It's interesting that the fear of being accused of sympathizing with Communism is so ingrained in the English speaking world that the simplest thought of claiming that inequality is bad and should be reduced must be coached in so many disclaimers of "but I'm not saying I like socialism" and "I'm sure living in that society was terrible".

I don't fault you, mind you. There's good reason to fear this backlash in a world that is rapidly equating Communism to Nazism and all forms of socialism and redistribution to Stalinism.

I know I'm making a mistake in posting this thought so plainly here, for example.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#67

Post by SuperNinKenDo »

finnh wrote: post #27
SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #15

Damn, I wanted to read more. Felt like the article received a brutal snip from the editor there.

you might like "Without You There Is No Us," a memoir by a foreign national hired to work at a boarding school for the children of the NK party elite

Sonds great, I'll check it out. Thanks!

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#68

Post by owyn »

WalterBright wrote: post #60
ldc_or_dmd wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did he have to reapply? Acceptance rates have gone pretty steadily down at most worthwhile colleges since the 1970s. It would be surprising if a candidate got more attractive to a school as time went on. I'm kind of curious about the process of applying to Caltech overall, as someone who didn't have the opportunity to apply to anywhere at 18, but would very much like to when I get the chance. If a person wants to get…

He did not have to reapply. Caltech's stance is once you're admitted, you are welcome to come back and keep trying. I know one who came back multiple times. Your credits don't expire, either, like they do other places. It's one of the great things about Caltech. The administration was just made up of nice people. I can only speak for the process that was in place when I applied back in the 70s. I sent them a letter a…

I've heard stories, my dad went there in the early 60's as a physics major, dropped out and then got a PhD in asian history from a different school, then lived in Japan for a while, taught university history for a while, then came back to the US and became a computer programmer (Cobol mostly) until he retired. He told stories like that but I didn't really believe it until the movie "Real Genius (1985)" put it on film. From what I hear, the pranks in the movie are lame shadows of the real ones but it's a movie and it gets the vibe across for me. Trying to understand my dad a little, that movie helped. Anyway, Caltech sounds cool. And the guy living in the closet would be doing crypto or AI now. :)

His last project was trying to write a comprehensive history of Japan for wikipedia. I helped him upload it and it's buried in Wikibooks somewhere now and I like to think that some of his work is going to end up in the training material for some future AI like a ghost.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#69

Post by cdelsolar »

WalterBright wrote: post #40
duxup wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a horrible college student when I was younger. For a variety of reasons. I quit school, got lucky, and fell into a good tech career. Many many years later after age 40 I was laid off, wanted a new career path / job, I took a few classes and eventually a bootcamp and changed careers. I was really nervous as far as how it would all play out knowing how terrible I was previously. It was completely different. The i…

A friend of mine dropped out of Caltech due to bad grades. I ran into him a decade later, and he said he'd recently graduated from Caltech, having gone back and gotten A's. I asked him what changed, did you get smarter? He laughed, and said no, this time I was willing to work.

I’m an alum and know several people who did the same thing - dropped out and came back 10 years later and finished.. Caltech was often nice about it and I believe they didn’t have to reapply.

Re: My doomed career as a North Korean novelist

#70

Post by WalterBright »

owyn wrote: post #68
WalterBright wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did not have to reapply. Caltech's stance is once you're admitted, you are welcome to come back and keep trying. I know one who came back multiple times. Your credits don't expire, either, like they do other places. It's one of the great things about Caltech. The administration was just made up of nice people. I can only speak for the process that was in place when I applied back in the 70s. I sent them a letter a…

I've heard stories, my dad went there in the early 60's as a physics major, dropped out and then got a PhD in asian history from a different school, then lived in Japan for a while, taught university history for a while, then came back to the US and became a computer programmer (Cobol mostly) until he retired. He told stories like that but I didn't really believe it until the movie "Real Genius (1985)" put it on film…

Yes, Real Genius gives a sense of what Caltech life was like (except for the absurd ending). The director wanted to film it on the campus, but Caltech (normally very accommodating to Hollywood) refused, thinking it would be bad publicity. So the director found other buildings built in the same style, so it looked like Caltech anyway.

When I was there, one year we built a railroad that ran through the dorm, and another year a jungle cruise with boats.

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