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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#181

Post by medion »

unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

Completely anecdotal but my father in law is a stone mason at 75 years old, working since 16 and wears zero PPE. Not even ear muffs on a large cutting machine the size of an SUV. Wears open toe sandals. Incredibly, he is insanely fit, not an ounce of hearing loss, and works full time to this day. I helped him lay a stone wall this year and I dare say he’s possibly stronger than me at almost half his age.

It’s honestly remarkable.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#182

Post by kelnos »

insaneirish wrote: post #27
archontes wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that folks will install it on site without cutting it?

As far as countertops go, field cuts are rather uncommon. Laser templating works well. Holes on the other hand tend to be done in the field. But, people don't wear PPE even though it's simple and easy to do.

> people don't wear PPE even though it's simple and easy to do

Maybe we should mandate people wear PPE, but if they decide to flaunt the rules and risk their health for no reason, I just don't really feel all that sympathetic.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#183

Post by yeeeloit »

mattmaroon wrote: post #176
defrost wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. > I really don't get it. Before engineered stone took off like crazy people were already cutting natural stone, working as stone masons, working at BGC quarries (stone mining, crushing, grading, delivery). After engineere…

OK, fair, and tragic, but is the only solution banning it entirely? What about requiring PPE? There are a whole lot of jobs that are safe when done properly and unsafe, when not done properly. It seems as if they are punishing an entire industry for not knowing what they didn’t know.

Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated.

The PPE available for this sort of work is just not up to the job.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#184

Post by blindriver »

saxman001 wrote: post #13
geetee wrote: post #4

I don't think I've ever seen a tradesperson wearing PPE. Recent example: our neighbor had some stonework done, and these guys were just casually hanging out in clouds of cement and stone dust.

Wearing PPE is miserable. The respiratory masks that reliably keep silica out of your lungs are painful. My job involves working with silica powders and I can really only handle about 20-30 minutes decked out in my bunny suit, respirator, over eye goggles, gloves and disposable sleeves before I need to take a break for air. This is in a climate controlled environment with a minimally physical set of tasks. Having wor…

It sounds like what you're saying is that we should ban your job to keep you from harming yourself, and you just find a new profession.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#185

Post by chii »

abracadaniel wrote: post #138
oooyay wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tooling and PPE are part of the problem but not all of it. People who clean up job sites are also getting sick: > "We actually not only saw people who were directly cutting and grinding the stone, but we saw people who were just sweeping up the work site after the stone had been cut," says Rose. "They were exposed to the silica particles that were suspended in the air just with housekeeping duties." So, basically eve…

There’s got to be ways to cut stone that don’t involve people sweeping up the dust with a broom. Water jets, wet saws, or even just a water mister and a wet/dry vac with a filter is going to be much better than just going about the same process with a different stone that they hope won’t be as bad on their lungs.

The sad state of australian industry is that there's very little investment in tooling, plant and equipment.

Businesses don't want to invest, and even if they do, they find it hard to find any financing as banks don't want to lend. It makes such tooling expensive, and thus a lot of small businesses don't (or can't) upgrade their tooling.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#186

Post by insaneirish »

sellmesoap wrote: post #172
insaneirish wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the point of templating. It's not a rectangular slab. It's a polygon to accommodate for inconsistencies and should be scribed to the back wall. And even if something is off, the drywall should be gouged to make the slab fit, rather than stone being cut onsite.

We do scribe the drywall at times, it depends on what's off, by how much and in relation to what. Can't scribe into a cabinet side, and mistakes happen. Even the sink cutouts are cut dry at the shop, so there's a ton of dust exposure for sure. The trades are a messy business. And 'get er done' usually comes before PPE in most trades even now that we have a better idea of what's bad for us, it's a temporary job for me…

Dry cut in the shop? You are making me want to cry.

I give up. Everything is screwed.

Your job is temporary, but please wear a respirator. :-)

Do everyone a favor and call OSHA on your last day. Nothing about this sounds "okay".

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#187

Post by blindriver »

webprofusion wrote: post #151

This is good news. Wood is more sustainable and can be more easily repaired and refinished anyway, the problem continues though is if it's replaced by other types of stone. The root problem is obviously lack of protective equipment being used, but that's a universal workplace safety issue and that requires stricter laws.

Saw dust causes lung cancer, so we should definitely outlaw using wood.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#188

Post by Qwertious »

freefruit wrote: post #134
dylan604 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if this was an american decision, i'd suggest the natural stone lobby was better than the engineered stone lobby.

Bunnings & Ikea recently stopped selling this product. My guess is Bunnings probably wanted to stop competition. So they probably lobbied the government for the full ban. After all, you can't have the competition selling a popular product that they don't. (Bunnings is like Australia's Home Depot or Lowe's)

Not to be confused with Lowe's in Australia, which sells clothing.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#189

Post by kelnos »

lathiat wrote: post #175
shiroiuma wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just make employers fully responsible in case any of their workers develop silicosis?

The building industry in Australia is filled almost entirely with independent contractors. Mostly single people, working on a contract to the house builder/project manager. So there is little room for that. But I agree, this would be good. But I think the decision here is basically that, in practice, it's very difficult to actually get people to follow the required practices, in practice. As has been shown in practic…

In this case I guess the independent contractor ends up accepting the responsibility for not taking their own safety precautions seriously: they get silicosis.

I feel for the people who were early in the industry who had no idea this could happen to them, but now that it's known, if a contractor doesn't feel like taking appropriate precautions, then they get what they deserve.

Banning an entire industry because people cut corners is just dumb.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#190

Post by blindriver »

Astraco wrote: post #79
zaphirplane wrote: post #31

No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber

Granite countertops are cheaper, more durable and have better thermal resistance than artificial stone ones.

Granite countertops can be radioactive, so we should ban granite countertops as well.
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