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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#101

Post by pzduniak »

archontes wrote: post #20
umvi wrote: post #17

Seems like you should ban the manufacturing methods, not the end product. Like, if I invent a way to safely manufacture and do on-site adjustments of engineered stone, shouldn't I be rewarded by the market for it? The material itself is not harmful, just breathing the dust of it is, which can be said of a lot of things in a common household.

Do you think that folks will install it on site without cutting it?

In my experience in Poland you leave the stuff that has to fit in the countertop at the stonemason's workshop and they measure/test fit everything there. My guy has a bunch of (perhaps?) old machines that all do the cuts flooded with something that resembles diamond tooling or grinding wheels.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#102

Post by unclekev »

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices.

One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+)

So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"?

All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned.

I really don't get it.

This whole "But we tried to enforce the safety standards on the industry" is a load of nonsense - How many businesses got fined or shut down for unsafe practices that caused silicosis for their staff? None.

The cycle will continue, and we'll be back here in 10 years when the "safe alternatives" are getting banned.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#103

Post by TylerE »

umvi wrote: post #17

Seems like you should ban the manufacturing methods, not the end product. Like, if I invent a way to safely manufacture and do on-site adjustments of engineered stone, shouldn't I be rewarded by the market for it? The material itself is not harmful, just breathing the dust of it is, which can be said of a lot of things in a common household.

Asbestos and lead are also minimal risk undamaged in-situ. Both are now banned, and for good reason.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#104

Post by lathiat »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #92
umvi wrote: post #17

Seems like you should ban the manufacturing methods, not the end product. Like, if I invent a way to safely manufacture and do on-site adjustments of engineered stone, shouldn't I be rewarded by the market for it? The material itself is not harmful, just breathing the dust of it is, which can be said of a lot of things in a common household.

Exactly. Or more precisely, ban the net effect (putting the dust into the air), and then people can find the best alternative given that constraint, whether it's a better manufacturing/installation process that doesn't put the dust into the air, or a product that doesn't produce the dust in the first place.

This was considered but the problem is it’s very difficult to enforce in practice

The product is generally installed onsite in a fast paced building industry that doesn’t have time/room to do it properly and often no supervision (1-2 often independent trades doing the installs) to ensure the appropriate measures are actually taken.

The risk has already been known for a while and in practice still lots of “YOLO” onsite cutting without even respirators.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#106

Post by unclekev »

umvi wrote: post #30
threeseed wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) It is truly dangerous. On par with asbestos. b) At least here in Australia the government any by extension taxpayers will have an increased health care burden because of this. Therefore it is entirely justified to limit its use.

My understanding is that a countertop won't release silica dust unless you cut it with power tools, unlike exposed asbestos which releases fibers with much less effort.

Correct.

Asbestos degrades over time and releases fibers with almost no effort/interaction with the material.

Engineered stone only releases dangerous particles when cut. It does not degrade.

They both require special care when being disposed of, but they are not "on par"

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#107

Post by TylerE »

dylan604 wrote: post #72
insaneirish wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as countertops go, field cuts are rather uncommon. Laser templating works well. Holes on the other hand tend to be done in the field. But, people don't wear PPE even though it's simple and easy to do.

>But, people don't wear PPE even though it's simple and easy to do. are you saying that wearing the PPE is simple and easy to do, or did you mean they don't wear PPE because the job is so simple and easy to do?

The first. Workers tend to be lazy. How many guys do you see all the time using noisy commercial lawn equipment without any sort of hearing or eye protection? Those guys will all be deaf (if lucky) or have severe tinnitus (if unlucky) by 50.

You see it in factories too, where workers will disable safety devices just to save them a tiny amount of movement.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#108

Post by TylerE »

amluto wrote: post #42
insaneirish wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as countertops go, field cuts are rather uncommon. Laser templating works well. Holes on the other hand tend to be done in the field. But, people don't wear PPE even though it's simple and easy to do.

I’ve watched a contractor cut holes in a countertop in the field. They did it wet. I’d still wear safety glasses if I were doing this, but IIRC there was no dust. I’ve never seen someone cut a countertop on site. They do it in a shop. (Why didn’t Australia instead ban all countertop cutting in shops that doesn’t use dustless tools?) Hmm, I just looked it up. Home Depot sells the tool for under $30.

Just because you can’t see the dust doesn’t mean there isn’t dust. Often it’s the tiniest particles that are the most dangerous because they can attach to the walls of the lungs but are too small to then actually be dislodged by, a say, coughing.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#109

Post by prawn »

zaphirplane wrote: post #31

No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber

We have something that was called Laminex Freestyle 10-15 years ago. I think it's a resin blend? Where it cracked, we were able to have that small area replaced and remelted so the seams are not visible. It's white and cops red wine, turmeric, etc all the time and has resisted staining.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#110

Post by bobsmooth »

TylerE wrote: post #103
umvi wrote: post #17

Seems like you should ban the manufacturing methods, not the end product. Like, if I invent a way to safely manufacture and do on-site adjustments of engineered stone, shouldn't I be rewarded by the market for it? The material itself is not harmful, just breathing the dust of it is, which can be said of a lot of things in a common household.

Asbestos and lead are also minimal risk undamaged in-situ. Both are now banned, and for good reason.

Asbestos was banned but lead is still used in many things.
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