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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#91

Post by legitster »

hattmall wrote: post #54
legitster wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the link: > "What we found ... was that the natural products we had in the panel of products that we assessed actually caused the biggest inflammatory response," Professor Zosky said. I'm not sure why they are saying it's the engineering. Their own study says that natural stone products are worse than the engineered products! It's probably there's a larger number of cases of silicosis from engineered products de…

Is it not because the manufactured stone requires manufacturing. So a lot more exposure to the raw materials during the manufacturing process?

The exposure to silica comes from cutting and grinding - and there is probably more exposure to cutting and grinding from natural stone (first at the quarry and second in production).

I think the important distinction is that with natural stone, much more is cut to fit from the factory (which is easier to handle dust) vs cut on site.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#92

Post by JoshTriplett »

umvi wrote: post #17

Seems like you should ban the manufacturing methods, not the end product. Like, if I invent a way to safely manufacture and do on-site adjustments of engineered stone, shouldn't I be rewarded by the market for it? The material itself is not harmful, just breathing the dust of it is, which can be said of a lot of things in a common household.

Exactly. Or more precisely, ban the net effect (putting the dust into the air), and then people can find the best alternative given that constraint, whether it's a better manufacturing/installation process that doesn't put the dust into the air, or a product that doesn't produce the dust in the first place.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#93

Post by Incipient »

saxman0001 wrote: post #29
insaneirish wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wearing PPE is miserable. The respiratory masks that reliably keep silica out of your lungs are painful. I completely disagree. Is it less comfortable than not wearing a mask? For sure. Do I consider it a burden to wear a P100 respirator when dealing with silica? Nope.

How many hours a day do you typically spend wearing your respirator? Have you had a professional fit test to see whether your respirator is making an adequate seal? Many folks wear these things far too loosely to pass a basic fitment test. How many hours a day do you spend moving objects that weight >20lbs while wearing your respirator? How often do you work on days >30C while decked out in your respirator? Do you ke…

>How many hours a day do you spend moving objects that weight >20lbs while wearing your respirator?

You wouldn't get wearing it while carrying etc. It's while cutting.

Don't get me a lot of establishments are probably not set up for proper dust control (eg cutting in a dust extraction room) but that's still not a reason to ban the product.

This was incredibly political. Our media outlets scared the crap out of everyone with a good month long campaign on it, so it became entirely political.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#94

Post by Robotbeat »

oooyay wrote: post #48
amluto wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PPE is the wrong solution here. Tools that don’t produce dust are the right solution. Wet tile saws and waterjets can cut stone (and engineered stone) with essentially no dust. An angle grinder with a dust shroud and HEPA filtered extractor (total cost starts around $400) can do the same thing a regular angle grinder does but with a lot less dust. And one really can work all day in a pouch-style N95 mask. They don’t…

> PPE is the wrong solution here. Tools that don’t produce dust are the right solution. "Essentially no dust" is not "no dust". There are no safe levels of silica that can be introduced to your lungs. > And one really can work all day in a pouch-style N95 mask N95 is basically the bare minimum in terms of filters. In my shop I have a shop vac with a tornado tumbler that attaches to tools for fine wood dust and a full…

There is no safe level of sun exposure in terms of skin cancer, either (although ironically you need Vitamin D, if you don't get it from dietary sources).

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#95

Post by Robotbeat »

Astraco wrote: post #79
zaphirplane wrote: post #31

No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber

Granite countertops are cheaper, more durable and have better thermal resistance than artificial stone ones.

And produce plenty of silica and mineral dust.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#96

Post by Incipient »

dbcurtis wrote: post #47
gimmeThaBeet wrote: post #39

I recall seeing stuff about this in California, but I think that was more about people polishing the big slabs, this seems more about masons installing them? But really terrible stuff, I know that's who the article focuses on, but it's just intrinsically, like mostly guys in their late 20s and 30s. If they have families, the kids are gonna be young, and then their lungs are just shot. I don't remember if there was a…

Installers and the folks back in the shops that cut the slabs for a particular job. Many are young, hardworking trades with limited English trying to give their young families a better life. Very sad. They didn’t know how bad it is, and I bet the contractor that owns the shop didn’t know until recently either.

Don't sensationalise it with "hard-working people with limited English". That's definitely not the people that were interviewed for media pieces here at least.

>They didn’t know how bad it is, and I bet the contractor that owns the shop didn’t know until recently either.

That's the issue. It wasn't well known or well talked about, and proper safety wasn't put in place.

Bloody hell wheat is both a drowning risk AND an explosive. Hell better ban that too!

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#97

Post by gruez »

dboreham wrote: post #86
legitster wrote: post #18

> Earlier this year workplace ministers tasked Safe Work Australia, a government WHS agency, with investigating how a ban could work and whether low-silica engineered stone could remain on the market safely. > The report found there was no safe level of silica, concluding: "The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited." I don't understand this logic. Silica is also present in natural stone too! If they are no…

Possibly the issue is more to do with the lower cost of the engineered material? Like, when tobacco cost a megabuck per oz in Queen Elizabeth times people smoked a pipe once in a while and in the context of their high exposure to fireplace smoke it was no big deal. Fast forward to when cigarettes cost 10c/pack and the marketing guys are selling them to 8 year olds...now it's a huge health problem.

That just seems like a policy that punishes the poor. It's like banning commercial flights for greenhouse gas reasons but letting private jets fly.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#98

Post by Arrath »

saxman0001 wrote: post #29
insaneirish wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wearing PPE is miserable. The respiratory masks that reliably keep silica out of your lungs are painful. I completely disagree. Is it less comfortable than not wearing a mask? For sure. Do I consider it a burden to wear a P100 respirator when dealing with silica? Nope.

How many hours a day do you typically spend wearing your respirator? Have you had a professional fit test to see whether your respirator is making an adequate seal? Many folks wear these things far too loosely to pass a basic fitment test. How many hours a day do you spend moving objects that weight >20lbs while wearing your respirator? How often do you work on days >30C while decked out in your respirator? Do you ke…

Full disclosure, this is going back to a job I had over 7 years ago, and did for about 2 years.

>How many hours a day do you typically spend wearing your respirator?

Minimum 6, as much as 14.

>Have you had a professional fit test to see whether your respirator is making an adequate seal?

Absolutely.

>How many hours a day do you spend moving objects that weight >20lbs while wearing your respirator?

~75% of any given shift.

>How often do you work on days >30C while decked out in your respirator?

About 2 months out of the year.

> Do you keep your face shaved baby smooth at all times?

Not any more! This was one of the driving factors in me leaving the job that required near full time respirator use, actually. I like my beard. :V

That said, I value my long term health much more than any discomfort throughout the current day to day. Give me that PPE, baby.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#99

Post by vilhelm_s »

legitster wrote: post #18

> Earlier this year workplace ministers tasked Safe Work Australia, a government WHS agency, with investigating how a ban could work and whether low-silica engineered stone could remain on the market safely. > The report found there was no safe level of silica, concluding: "The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited." I don't understand this logic. Silica is also present in natural stone too! If they are no…

Apparently the spike in cases in due to engineered stone. The FAQ gives various reasons why this may be the case, e.g. the generated particle size is different, and also it is easier to cut than natural stone so it may be processed by less skilled workers.

https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/safety-topic/hazards/cr...

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#100

Post by anigbrowl »

saxman0001 wrote: post #29
insaneirish wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wearing PPE is miserable. The respiratory masks that reliably keep silica out of your lungs are painful. I completely disagree. Is it less comfortable than not wearing a mask? For sure. Do I consider it a burden to wear a P100 respirator when dealing with silica? Nope.

How many hours a day do you typically spend wearing your respirator? Have you had a professional fit test to see whether your respirator is making an adequate seal? Many folks wear these things far too loosely to pass a basic fitment test. How many hours a day do you spend moving objects that weight >20lbs while wearing your respirator? How often do you work on days >30C while decked out in your respirator? Do you ke…

Off-topic, but why is there a brand new saxman0001 account replying to a saxman001 (member since 2021) thread?

Also nthing what other people said about just using a full face respirator if you don't like smaller variety. I don't like respirators as such but they do the job.

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