111–120 of 126 posts
I wonder what will happen to the Spring ecosystem. Will Broadcom close it off and try to monetize it?
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We would have to see a 2x minimum YoY cost increase just to justify a poliot program to consider moving to something else Keep in mind it is more than just shifting all of the VM workloads to a new platform something not easy in the first place But you also have to factor admin training, backup and recovery systems, monitoriting systems, automation tooling, etc. We have been using vmware since version 3 or 4, our ent…
> Something like ProxMox that has no third party support, no veeam support, limited automation tooling, limited support for commerical monitoring (like PRTG) etc etc is probally a non-starter unless those things support it. Proxmox VE has an extensive REST API with API tokens and an access control system to allow for safe automation. There are also Terraform providers and Ansible modules for those that do not want to…
I am sure it does, that would then require enterprise to build their own tooling. I clearly talked about integration with 3rd parties that were built into the product, I do not know many IT Teams that have either the human resources to devote or in many cases the Knowledge to inhouse dev their one tools on that level. They purchase 3rd party tools in lieu of bespoke tooling.
This is a common point of contention when I interact with people in developer or devops communities like this one, they have forgotten how traditional IT shops work. We are still out here, and we are most likely the primarly customers impacted by this change. The DevOps shops are in the cloud...
>>>>There's also Proxmox Backup Server that can handle guest-level backups as good as Veeam can, but yes, the agents and application level backups is still not there
PBS is not a replacement for veeam even for Guest-Level Backups, It is about 5 years behind if not more in Backup Tech.
Veeam Provides (that ProxMox does not)
* Hypervisor agnostic backups (Restore from any supported Hypervisor to Any hypervisor or supported Cloud. i.e I can restore a vmWare VM to AWS Directly)
* Application Aware processing for common applications like SQL, Sharepoint, etc I think this is different than what you call "Application Level", as an Application Aware Backup will use technology to flush cache, finish tranactions, prune logs, etc to put the application in "saved" or "backup ready" state, PBS creates "Crash Consistent" backups only, basically as if you just pulled the power from the VM, some applications this will corrupt data, Application Aware backups work to prevent that corruption
* SQL Transaction Logs backup in per minute intervals with cross location functionality
* Continuous Replication
* Isolated / Automated Restore testing with reports
* Awesome Compression and Duplication rates in the backup files
* Builtin Support for S3 Storage with out having to do OS Level hacks (PBS depends on something like rclone to do this)
* Builtin Support for Block Replication with having to do OS Level Hacks
* Help Desk portal for File Level Restores that allow for RBAC Security
* Integrated Agent based backups for physical systems that provides a Single Plane of Glass for Backups
* Change Block Tracking (CBT) support
* Immutable backups repository
Comparing PBS to Veeam, is like Comparing pfsense to Palo Alto Pan-OS firewall, sure they both block traffic, but 1 in 100x more advanced
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> Something like ProxMox that has no third party support, no veeam support, limited automation tooling, limited support for commerical monitoring (like PRTG) etc etc is probally a non-starter unless those things support it. Proxmox VE has an extensive REST API with API tokens and an access control system to allow for safe automation. There are also Terraform providers and Ansible modules for those that do not want to…
>>>>Proxmox VE has an extensive REST API with API tokens I am sure it does, that would then require enterprise to build their own tooling. I clearly talked about integration with 3rd parties that were built into the product, I do not know many IT Teams that have either the human resources to devote or in many cases the Knowledge to inhouse dev their one tools on that level. They purchase 3rd party tools in lieu of be…
Besides the fact that I explicitly also talked about third-party tooling, which definitively is available, even if not yet as broadly (cue chicken and egg), lots of such extra third-party tooling makes one's infrastructure dependent by many more projects than required, each adding complexity and reducing reliability. But as said, this is a complaint for the third-party tooling provider.
> they have forgotten how traditional IT shops work. We are still out here, and we are most likely the primarly customers impacted by this change. The DevOps shops are in the cloud...
Yeah, we certainly did not forget that and cater that group extensively already. But currently the ones that use PVE or PBS are the ones favoring independence, i.e., FOSS and projects that only have to answer to their user, but no profit optimization machine, either by being bitten way to often by such changes already or understood early enough that having core infra on a proprietary platform including any 3rd party tooling is rather reckless for the long term (cue at this thread).
> Veeam Provides (that ProxMox does not)
s/ProxMox/Proxmox VE/
There's no upper case m, and Proxmox is the company, the actual products are Proxmox Virtual Environment (PVE), Proxmox Backup Server (PBS), Proxmox Mail Gateway (PMG), etc.
But, let's actually comment your points:
> * Hypervisor agnostic backups (Restore from any supported Hypervisor to Any hypervisor or supported Cloud. i.e I can restore a vmWare VM to AWS Directly)
AWS wasn't in our scope, but we can add any target that has an actual open specification, i.e., not requiring a deal with the devil that would force us to do a low quality hidden proprietary implementation.
> * Application Aware processing for common applications like SQL, Sharepoint, etc I think this is different than what you call "Application Level", as an Application Aware Backup will use technology to flush cache, finish tranactions, prune logs, etc to put the application in "saved" or "backup ready" state, PBS creates "Crash Consistent" backups only, basically as if you just pulled the power from the VM, some applications this will corrupt data, Application Aware backups work to prevent that corruption
> * Continuous Replication
Can be done by Proxmox VE's Ceph and ZFS.
> * Isolated / Automated Restore testing with reports
Wasn't done with PBS PVE di
> * Awesome Compression and Duplication rates in the backup files
Yes, PBS has a content addressable storage with great deduplication and compression.
> * Builtin Support for S3 Storage with out having to do OS Level hacks (PBS depends on something like rclone to do this)
This is indeed lacking, but we're working on it, I'd think we have something read until mid of 2024.
> * Builtin Support for Block Replication with having to do OS Level Hacks
Not sure what you mean here exactly..
> * Help Desk portal for File Level Restores that allow for RBAC Security
We have a role based access control system for all our products, this can be already done...
> * Integrated Agent based backups for physical systems that provides a Single Plane of Glass for Backups
You can use the CLI client already, but yeah it should get some UX improvements for making that nicer OOTB.
> * Change Block Tracking (CBT) support
This is supported since years by Proxmox Backup Server. Sorry, but at this point I have to ask, did you even test Proxmox Backup Server or is your list just guessed, or partially AI generated?
> * Immutable backups repository
The PBS allows that too, we have explicit permission rights that can only add backups, never remove, plus on sync to off-site one can also disable any pruning, those features and our tape support makes it easy to have ransomware protected backups.
> Comparing PBS to Veeam, is like Comparing pfsense to Palo Alto Pan-OS firewall, sure they both block traffic, but 1 in 100x more advanced
As most your points above are already supported I'd take 1.5x at best, but thanks for your feedback, some of it was quite valuable.
For the longest time I have been a vmware-only for baremetal. Hyper-V is ok and does the job. Virtualbox was ruined by oracle.
Oh well. Many many other virtualization platforms to choose from.
Is it time I learn Kubernetes?
Earlier quoted context omitted.
>>>>Proxmox VE has an extensive REST API with API tokens I am sure it does, that would then require enterprise to build their own tooling. I clearly talked about integration with 3rd parties that were built into the product, I do not know many IT Teams that have either the human resources to devote or in many cases the Knowledge to inhouse dev their one tools on that level. They purchase 3rd party tools in lieu of be…
> They purchase 3rd party tools in lieu of bespoke tooling. Besides the fact that I explicitly also talked about third-party tooling, which definitively is available, even if not yet as broadly (cue chicken and egg), lots of such extra third-party tooling makes one's infrastructure dependent by many more projects than required, each adding complexity and reducing reliability. But as said, this is a complaint for the…
for example
>We have a role based access control system for all our products, this can be already done.
So you have a web portal where a Help Desk Tech can take a user request for a file to be restored back to a vm, open a web portal search for the indivual file then either download that file and email it to the user, or restore it back to the VM, or restore it to a completely different VM depending on the use case???
Veeam Does
>>Can be done by Proxmox VE's Ceph and ZFS.
Sure you can do it that why, but veeam has support for this in their product, in the UI that is already part of my work flow, this is what I consider a "OS Level or Storage level hack" it is not really part of Proxmox, but part of the underlying linux OS or Storage solution.
>>Builtin Support for Block Replication
Veeam use ReFS or XFS to only store one version of a block no matter how many backups are taken, this is done in the veeam software and works with their VBK file format. ZFS has some dedup which is what proxmox relies on but it works differently than Veeam, and seems to be less effective. These Block Cloning also works with the Data Format uploaded to S3 to massively save on storage costs
>> I have to ask, did you even test Proxmox Backup Server or is your list just guessed, or partially AI generated?
About 3 years ago...
Have you ever used Veeam? I have been using Veeam since version 9.5, and hold a VMCE certification
Soon we will have reached the point where software piracy is the only way not to build your company on digital quicksand. I sincerely hope we never get there because it would ruin the commercial software market, which did produce amazing tools in the past. But by now, it certainly looks like major participants are boosting their last remaining quarters (before the company implodes) by scorching the earth they walk on…
It’s could be a great day for Open Source software. Maybe we need to adapt Open Source so that cloud providers who use it have to pay for continued development instead of just using it for free or putting a control panel on top of something and calling it their own product, but that’s the solution we came up with the first time proprietary software vendors started trying to lock the universe down into perpetual upgra…
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unless something has changed recently, openstack is a horror to setup and administer. the point of vmware is that is fairly trivial to go from a single server with some VMs, to a massive cluster with live zero-downtime migrations. (and have funky storage, get working snapshots and backups.) Sure openstack can do that. but its non trivial to setup.
I see companies hire a team of experts who plan and architect for six months to a year before they are ready to deploy a new VMWare cluster. I've seen a two or three rack cluster cost a million dollars before the architecture team requisitioned a single piece of hardware or software. I've seen a very small outfit spend six months with all hired consultants to set up a 3-server VMWare cluster. VMWare doesn't seem that…
Then those people are woefully incompetent and will be regardless of the software they're using.
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Sorry, I don't think it is out of touch? I see this kind of thing all the time everywhere.
Even with the corporate speak, I don't think I've ever seen that naked of a response that was essentially "we want more money" Isn't windows 11 forcing an annual prescription? That will be the real test.
Freudian slip ftw
Has the free ESXi survived the turmoil?
Free esxi is pretty crippled at this point, esp for high core counts. Proxmox is the way to go!
Asking because although their website says its OSS it's super unclear what to download for homelab use.
If they're seriously wanting people to pay $$$ even to run it on old homelab gear, that's not going to work (for me). ;)
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What about Nutanix?
Nutanix has a Community Edition which works well, but has some fairly strict requirements due to the overhead of their controller VMs and such https://www.nutanix.com/products/community-edition
Fuck that. They can go and fuck themselves sideways instead. :(