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To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

nytimes.com

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Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#941

Post by kevingadd »

google234123 wrote: post #811
kevingadd wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're basically advocating for widespread rollback of civil rights, based on the examples you chose?

You don’t have a right to theft. Let’s go back to punishing crime.

"punishing crime" is a frankly insulting understatement of the way countries like Singapore or the UAE treat accused criminals. Not to mention the list of things that count as crimes there. I mean if you're that angry about shoplifters or homeless people doing drugs on the street, okay, but don't be dishonest about what these role model countries actually do

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#942

Post by buzzert »

uoaei wrote: post #625
swalling wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, actually we should be trying to fix the stupid mistakes that were made in implementation of the plan, not roll it back and keep on fighting an equally moronic, ineffective, and racist War on Drugs elsewhere. The best available evidence is that decriminalization essentially had no effect on overdose deaths ( https://www.opb.org/article/2023/10/03/ballot-measure-110-di... ). It was going to go up no matter what bec…

This is the classic approach of conservatives: throw wrenches in every part of a welfare system, then point to its failures to justify its dissolution. See: Medicare, public education, etc.

I'm curious why you think there are much fewer homeless in conservative cities (like Provo, Jacksonville, even Orange County)? Is it because everything is backwards? The progressive cities are actually conservative, and the conservative cities are actually progressive?

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#943

Post by buzzert »

pr0zac wrote: post #857
anon291 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have way more rules than prisons a Rules are good for a well lived life. My house has more rules than prisons.

What, no it doesn't? Like seriously, what?

In my house, guests are required to remove their shoes before entering. Also coasters must be used for beverages.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#944

Post by uoaei »

buzzert wrote: post #942
uoaei wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the classic approach of conservatives: throw wrenches in every part of a welfare system, then point to its failures to justify its dissolution. See: Medicare, public education, etc.

I'm curious why you think there are much fewer homeless in conservative cities (like Provo, Jacksonville, even Orange County)? Is it because everything is backwards? The progressive cities are actually conservative, and the conservative cities are actually progressive?

People have feet and can move between cities...

They're pushed out, either through police violence or a complete lack of viable social support systems. There's many ways to discourage folks from sticking around through ad hoc policies without putting it explicitly into law, or else to simply not mandate the kind of support that other cities have.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#945

Post by gota »

evandale wrote: post #862
dannersy wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree but also think it goes further than that. The person you replied to also seems to act as if many of these people are actively choosing to not be tax payers and not be productive members of society. Which is a separate discussion we could have, but I think it's especially disingenuous as a country still dealing with an opioid crisis. I know first hand people who went and paid for school, got jobs and healthcar…

> The person you replied to also seems to act as if many of these people are actively choosing to not be tax payers and not be productive members of society. A lot of people like this exist though. Toronto has a huge problem where the homeless refuse to go to shelters because they don't want to be told they can't use drugs. So they make the conscious decision to opt out of society and stay on the street. There is no…

> Intelligent, educated, and capable adults should be held accountable for their own decisions when they turn out to be poor decisions.

Rarely I'll state something so strongly - this is true at face value but in the context you meant it is so fundamentally wrong it borders insanity.

The entire reason we have regulation and reputation-based systems in place (like diplomas from accredited universities, or the bar, etc.) is to allow the individual to delegate decisions to specialists. That is why practicing medicine without appropriate training is a crime (in most/all countries I know of).

Do you also want me to get out of my car and do some quick analysis of the structural integrity of every bridge I'm going to cross? Or are you goin to blame me if the bridge collapses and kills me?

Again, back to the case at hand - the whole purpose of having medical professionals is to follow their advice.

If they are prescribing you poison the solution is obviously to prosecute them through the judicial system, not undoying every trust-based system that makes complex professions in society even remotely possible/functional

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#946

Post by pcthrowaway »

ilikehurdles wrote: post #522
pcthrowaway wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialize the drug distribution then. The government can manufacture and distribute drugs at dirt cheap prices. I don't want legal drugs for me, but to get rid of the criminal distribution networks, and reduce the lengths addicts need to go to in order to procur drugs (which may often culminate in robbery and theft)

Sweet, let’s have a government that profiteers off providing their people with extremely addictive, life-destroying, undeniably harmful substances. I’m sure that’ll work out great and not be corrupted ever. As long as you short-sighted folks keep this idiotic social experimentation out of Oregon, go nuts. We’ve had enough of being the nation’s testbed of half-assed radical policy.

> Sweet, let’s have a government that profiteers off providing their people with extremely addictive, life-destroying, undeniably harmful substances. I’m sure that’ll work out great and not be corrupted ever.

Did you miss the part where we were suggesting the government didn't make money off of this?

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#947

Post by bafe »

jonfw wrote: post #797
bitcharmer wrote: post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appreciate your comment. Terrifyingly high number of commenters (likely Americans) drawing flawed conclusions. We tried and failed, therefore this problem is unsolvable. Dozens of cities in other parts of the world had much success, so maybe you're doing it wrong? Zurich did a great job, especially with the transformation of the infamous needle park.

Doing some research on needle park- it looks like the experiments with allowing drug use were a massive failure, absolutely ruining the park, and it was ultimately cleaned up by law enforcement

the quote is missing what happened after the Platzpitz and later the older Letten train station were cleared: heroin use was decriminalised - not legalised - but only in controlled locations under supervision from medical staff and social workers. It seems that solution helped in multiple ways: - no people using heroin on the streets - no overdoses - drug users became less criminal because they didn't need as much money to finance their use - the medicalisation of heroin use made it less appealing to new users by removing the rebellious aspect

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#948

Post by xrd »

I'm from Portland. And, recently moved to Florida. This issue feels a lot less cut and dried than people make it out.

One thing I've noticed in Florida is that there are no public spaces. Every park has explicit hours, where it is illegal to be there after 10 pm. And, there are blue lives matters signs everywhere, so I'm sure that the police round up anyone who doesn't comply.

Also, Florida has a low prison population rate, only 900 per 100k. Low when you compare it to other states that is. Northern states are much lower, like Oregon at 550. Taking 40,000 people off the street is one way to solve homelessness.

I bet there are lots of people in Florida who live cheaply away from any population centers because of the police presence and to avoid imprisonment. Those people probably would be homeless on the West Coast.

There was an extremely high people case in Portland recently where a man attacked two young black men on the train. His name is Adrian Cummings. Supposedly he was let out of jail in Oregon and that's indicative of a failure of the criminal justice system because he should have been in jail long before that assault.

But he's a Floridian. He had a lengthy criminal record before reaching Oregon and his drug addiction didn't start in Oregon. The transformation of his face over a short period due to drug addiction is crazy to see in his mug shots.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2017/03/07/deputies-man-chok...

How the hell did this guy get to Oregon? I doubt he was a drug tourist. Makes you wonder.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#949

Post by BriggyDwiggs42 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #289
BriggyDwiggs42 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean if you propose we just kill addicts it might be effective in some cold, economic sense, but it sure would be great not to do that. I don’t know why you’d use china as an example unless thats what you’re suggesting. Say we put someone in prison then treat them for drug use and it works. This person is cured, found jesus, and will never touch another drug in their life. Why would you still keep them in prison? T…

That wasn’t the point. Some of addicts in China are dying, but given the lack of a social safety net at all, most are just willing not to go there. Here in the USA, you can try fent with the local idea that mom, dad, or maybe society, will put you back together. In China, none of that will happen, your chances of ruining your life are obviously high, so doing drugs isn’t really an option. But we can’t really go there…

How do you know that drug use is so much more rare in China? Wouldn’t this system allow it to be equally common but relegated to the shadows? Just based on what I’ve heard from a friend who grew up there, people in China go through an extremely competitive, difficult schooling to obtain a position in an extremely competitive, brutal workspace and have high rates of undiagnosed mental illness as a result. I’d be willing to bet a lot of them secretly use drugs to cope. Do you think it’s the fact that people will be able to put you back together in the USA that gets people into it? I’d have thought they get into drugs young, when they don’t think it’s dangerous (or like that it is) then get addicted and look for things to keep getting that high on. Only other group that comes to mind is veterans coping with ptsd and people who got put on prescription painkillers, though I’m sure there are others I’m not considering. If I’m mistaken please inform me.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#950

Post by buzzert »

uoaei wrote: post #944
buzzert wrote: post #942

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious why you think there are much fewer homeless in conservative cities (like Provo, Jacksonville, even Orange County)? Is it because everything is backwards? The progressive cities are actually conservative, and the conservative cities are actually progressive?

People have feet and can move between cities... They're pushed out, either through police violence or a complete lack of viable social support systems. There's many ways to discourage folks from sticking around through ad hoc policies without putting it explicitly into law, or else to simply not mandate the kind of support that other cities have.

Right, but I'm asking if Portland is secretly run by conservatives, why does it have a different outcome? i.e., why doesn't Portland discourage folks from sticking around?
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