Al Jazeera on the front of HN? Is Alex Jones and Enquirer coming up next?
'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
331–340 of 1001 posts
Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm sorry, but even if I concede the notion that this piece promotes "intellectual curiosity" in some amount (how much?), this news source is highly biased and has been found to spread fake news especially on the events since October 7th including current war in Gaza. There is real harm in spreading this information. As you may or may not know, mobs and individuals around the world are fed such false narratives that…
I attempted to answer that question here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38617464 , but to add a bit more: the idea on HN has always been to go by article quality, not site quality ( https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... ). An article appearing on HN is by no means an endorsement of the site as a whole, nor of anything else appearing on that site.
I would disagree with that policy in this case. In most other articles, the reader has a much better ability to understand the quality of the article from reading it. This audience is primarily technical and not political. This topic has such a long history and so much nuance to it, that an article about this topic can uniquely spread a false narrative to a non political reader. That being said, not every reader has little political understanding which makes having a discussion even harder. Imagine a physicist, electrical engineer, mechanical engineer, and artist trying to have a discussion about "reflections in time." With that topic, while a discussion may be difficult, it at worst isnt harmful. In this case, a false narrative can and has been used to further hateful ideas, hate speech, and actual crime. With those negative possibilities here, I think we should be erring on the side of caution and not on the side of curiosity.
A smaller reason why I disagree with this is that the responses to this topic are uniquely capable of alienating large quantities of people which is counter to what we'd want for a community like this.
Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
#333Earlier quoted context omitted.
The least of our worries at the moment... but honestly, the Israeli tech sector is highly intertwined with the army, so I doubt this will damage it in the long run.
How is it intertwined? Startups or big weapons manufacturers?
Both I think. Weapons manufacturers are the obvious one. But more importantly IMO is that there are a couple of tech units in the army (look up 8200 for example) whose graduates start a lot of startups (frequently skipping university). Some of these startups are arms/cyber related, but not necessarily. It's one big feedback loop really.
Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, I don't think that is a reasonable take at all. 1. This is warfare, not civil law. Hamas, which is the sovereign in Gaza (there has been no Israeli military presence there for years), commited an act of war in which hundreds were killed, raped, and kidnapped. Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen an…
I think an honest answer would be to end occupation and oppression of the Palestinians by Israel. Any occupying force has an interest to silence and stop indigenous people from claiming their land rights. For example, Gaza had been described as an open air prison for almost 2 decades because its borders, imports, sea usage, had all been controlled by Israel. This is not what we call “sovereign rule”. The West Bank ha…
This statement is very uninformed. Isreal left Gaza very logn time ago. They had an election and Hamas came to power, and they never hold an election after. There is no land dispute between Isreal and Gaza (Unlike Westbank where there are serious disputes). The main problem is that Hamas and its supporter Iran consistentnly in word and in practice declared that want to wipe out and destroy Isreal. It is not about some land disupte. They want the whole Isreal gone. Now, the question is would it be wise to let this group of people with clear intention to completely destroy Israel have open borders? They make missles even without open borders.
If you want to be really honest here. The issue is that Hamas need to agree that Israel has the right to exist. Period. As far as they don't, I see this war very well justified similar to the War with Japanese Empire or Nazi Germany.
Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
#335Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas and want peace and a free Palestinian state according to the '67 borders. These would be the equivalents on the other side.
I posted this perspective previously ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38071749 ) but it was immediately flagged out: https://libcom.org/article/voices-front-line-against-occupat... >I want you to know something else, which is that the Palestinian Authority and President Mahmoud Abbas do not represent us, the Palestinian people, at all. We reject authority and we reject Abbas and all his ministers. I do not know…
Additional friendly reminder that Bush Jr is responsible for Hamas.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-electe...
Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
That explains what happened in 50s and 60s. Leveling Gaza in 2023 doesn't fall in that category, Hamas never had the power to do anything about Israel's existence as a state.
I think that what’s going on in the minds of those calling the shots on Israel’s side (or at least most of them) is: they’re not trying to level Gaza. They’re trying to fight a war against Hamas, and Hamas is fighting from positions in cities that are often literally on the grounds of or inside what ought to be protected civilian sites: hospitals, mosques, etc. And they are surely making what seems a straightforward…
Politically, Hamas has something in common with Nethanyahus government: the urge to stay in power. From that perspective, at least for now, both sides, Israels politicak leadership and Hamas leadership, have achieved their goal.
Another thing both have in common: they don't give a fuck about the price other people have to pay in order to achieve that goal.
Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's interesting that you are citing a former South African politician who opposed apartheid. I will quote a South African journalist who fought against apartheid, published books about it and defended Israel as a non-apartheid state for many years after moving there. Now, he states that it is indeed an apartheid state. "In 2001, I joined Israel’s government delegation to the world conference against racism in Durban…
TBF- Mosiuoa Lekota, who literally went to jail with Nelson Mandela, should probably be listened to more than the random journalist you cited. I read the article though and it basically is saying that right wing extremism in Israel is doing some things reminiscent of Apartheid South Africa. That doesn't sound systemic - more like a warning that people need to stand up to the right wing extremism is Israel. Fair point…
I'm not sure I agree with you, in the Humans Right report and Amnesty International report they clearly show evidence for systemic apartheid. Also former UN chief says Israel’s treatment of Palestinians may constitute apartheid [2].
Overview[1]:
"Since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, successive governments have created and maintained a system of laws, policies, and practices designed to oppress and dominate Palestinians. This system plays out in different ways across the different areas where Israel exercises control over Palestinians’ rights, but the intent is always the same: to privilege Jewish Israelis at the expense of Palestinians.
Israeli authorities have done this through four main strategies:
Fragmentation into domains of control
At the heart of the system is keeping Palestinian separated from each other into distinct territorial, legal and administrative domains
Dispossession of land and property
Decades of discriminatory land and property seizures, home demolitions and forced evictions
Segregation and control
A system of laws and policies that keep Palestinians restricted to enclaves, subject to several measures that control their lives, and segregated from Jewish Israelis
Deprivation of economic & social rights
The deliberate impoverishment of Palestinians keeping them at great disadvantage in comparison to Jewish Israelis"
1. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-...
2. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-occupation-ap...
Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
#338Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…
I think the self-defense discussion is more of a PR talking point, intl law is pretty clear on the rights and responsibilties of occupying powers. That said, we seem to be entering a new world order where international law means nothing at all.
but did it ever, really? Kissinger died a peaceful death of old age
Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
#339Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, I don't think that is a reasonable take at all. 1. This is warfare, not civil law. Hamas, which is the sovereign in Gaza (there has been no Israeli military presence there for years), commited an act of war in which hundreds were killed, raped, and kidnapped. Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen an…
This is a longer version of "Israel has the right to defend itself". Maybe Israel shouldn't exist but since it does I think we can agree it has a right to defend itself since if it doesn't innocents will be harmed/killed/raped. That said, even in war, there are long established rules of engagement in war designed to protect (as possible) non-combatants. Israel is not respecting these rules at all. And beyond the insa…
> That said, even in war, there are long established rules of engagement in war designed to protect (as possible) non-combatants. Israel is not respecting these rules at all.
Israel absolutely should be respecting the rules of war. As far as I know, it is.
People often like to claim that it's not, hinting at some vague "war crimes" or claiming that Israel is targeting civilians, but there is no proof of that happening on purpose, that I'm aware.
This is complicated by Hamas deliberately using human shields and trying to get Gazans killed to make Israel look bad. It is a very complicated situation to fight in and Israel is absolutely making mistakes, but I urge you, show evidence of it actually committing war crimes in the killing of citizens.
> And beyond the insane death toll and indiscriminate bombing, Gazans are hungry and without water and shelter.
Hamas is the government responsible for Gazans. if they are hungry, it's because Hamas is failing in its duty to its citizens. They are literally stealing food from aid trucks in order to feed themselves (and probably stockpile food in tunnels) instead of feeding their own citizens.
Not to mention, they could return the hostages and surrender and spare themselves and their citizens all of this death and pain.
As for the "insane death tool" - what makes it "insane" in your mind?
Note: every death is a tragedy. Civilians dying, on either side, is tragic. Hell, even soldiers and Hamas militants dying is tragic - every death is a tragedy. I'm talking about all this analytically but the death and suffering here is horrible.
Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
#340Earlier quoted context omitted.
In my experience, the "benefit of the doubt" has been lost in relation to this subject. I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. It's tragic and a tragic subject, although I dispute the "there couldn't be a more significant current event" - lots of events are equally (or more) significant and relevant. I hope to be proven wrong, but I have doubts.
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>Even that, has x10 less the civilian rate death.
What a blatant lie. The Siege of Mariupol alone is estimated to have killed somewhere between 25000 and 75000 civilians. The UN's fraudulent claim that "only 10,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed" is a blatant lie to keep China and Russia happy.
Any discussion about collateral damage should take population density into consideration. The population density of Ukraine is 63 per square kilometer. The population density of Gaza is 5500 per square kilometer.