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Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

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Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#151

Post by psunavy03 »

raincom wrote: post #136
TriangleEdge wrote: post #125

As an engineer, what I want to see is metrics. Bar charts for events the surveillance program helped with: y = count of terrorist plots stopped, x = time bucket y = cost of surveillance programs, x = time bucket y = count of petty crimes caught, x = time bucket y = count of total analyst caught abusing power, x = time bucket y = count of total Americans profiles, x = time bucket y = count of total world wide profiles…

Because of metrics, easy tasks in scrum/agile are transformed into monstrous little tasks, spanning five months. Same thing with law enforcement: they find some mentally deranged person in KS, lays a trap to ensnare him in terrorism charges. Yes, 'our dragnet' captured this many number of terrorists (that is, y).

This is not how Scrum, Agile, or metrics work. Incompetent management doesn't need to be generalized into some sort of indictment of things beyond incompetent management.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#152

Post by mistermann »

u32480932048 wrote: post #39
flkenosad wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's side are you on?

The Good Side, obviously.

How certain are you that a good side even exists?

And, do you believe that that which is obvious is necessarily true?

Or, were you maybe "having a laugh"? If so, note that the validity of our "democracy" is measured in lives, sometimes millions of lives.

Some people think artificially shortened life spans is a big deal, some do not. Some think it matters for some people, but not for others. Some people think they understand what is going on, some do not. Some people are able to be curious about such things, others do not have the ability to.

I believe lack of education in certain domains (and "over education" in others), and culture, play extremely substantial causal roles here.

Please excuse my excess seriousness, I appreciate that HN "is not intended" for discussion of topics beyond certain levels of seriousness.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#153

Post by zirgs »

Meanwhile it is completely legal for the US alphabet boys to spy on foreigners. They don't need any warrants or anything like that.

If you're living in the West then you're in American jurisdiction for all intents and purposes - if they are interested in you - they will get you. And you have no rights or protections whatsoever. Your own government won't protect you.

My country has extradited our own citizens to the USA before and will do that again.

It really sucks that there's no second democratic pole. The only alternative to this is to live in an authoritarian country like Russia or China where you have even fewer rights and freedoms.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#154

Post by [deleted] »

seanw444 wrote: post #111

The FBI director straight up admits that they violate the 4th amendment routinely, and then begs Congress to not ruin their precious workaround. And yet they will face no punishment whatsoever. Like another commenter said, many people were probably unconstitutionally charged via parallel construction thanks to this crap.

[deleted]

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#155

Post by oh_sigh »

ink_13 wrote: post #122
oh_sigh wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, our borders might be legally closed, but with 2.2 million people illegally crossing them from the southern border per year, that is the entire population of Houston, maybe it's fair to say they're closed but effectively open. Coupled with the fact that if you're caught, you can just say you're claiming asylum and you get to stay.

They are not "legally closed", they are controlled. A closed border permits no crossings, which is clearly not the state of reality.

The borders are legally closed everywhere except designated border crossings.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#157

Post by sassy_quat »

raincom wrote: post #136
TriangleEdge wrote: post #125

As an engineer, what I want to see is metrics. Bar charts for events the surveillance program helped with: y = count of terrorist plots stopped, x = time bucket y = cost of surveillance programs, x = time bucket y = count of petty crimes caught, x = time bucket y = count of total analyst caught abusing power, x = time bucket y = count of total Americans profiles, x = time bucket y = count of total world wide profiles…

Because of metrics, easy tasks in scrum/agile are transformed into monstrous little tasks, spanning five months. Same thing with law enforcement: they find some mentally deranged person in KS, lays a trap to ensnare him in terrorism charges. Yes, 'our dragnet' captured this many number of terrorists (that is, y).

[dead]

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#158

Post by pdonis »

_heimdall wrote: post #21
dannyw wrote: post #10

Mass surveillance is antithetical to liberty, but direct, concrete harm is hard to identify. The surveillance complex has been pretty good at using secrecy, and perhaps even good internal controls, to limit everyday impact. How can we find real harms to win this fight? Or how can we get people to care?

The legal authority to surveil itself should be considered enough harm in my opinion. It fundamentally damages right to privacy, harm caused by the actual surveillance itself shouldn't be needed if the legal system is really designed to protect our rights.

> The legal authority to surveil itself should be considered enough harm in my opinion.

While I'm sympathetic to this viewpoint, one should be clear about the tradeoff. One of the government's primary duties is to keep citizens secure, from crime, terrorism, etc. That is the argument that is used to justify the legal authority to surveil. It's not enough to just say "protect our rights"--the whole point is that there is a tradeoff of rights. Protecting you against crime and terrorism is also protecting your rights--your right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, if nothing else. So one can't just say "no surveillance" and leave it at that; one has to make a case for why the existing tradeoff of rights is the wrong one and should be changed.

Also on the subject of rights, the US Bill Rights recognizes the need for things like surveillance, searches, seizures, etc. That's why the Fourth Amendment doesn't say "no surveillance, period". It just requires that there is a warrant that specifies particular information. So if the proper tradeoff is what the Fourth Amendment describes, that's not "no surveillance". It's just stopping the abuses of the warrant process.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#159

Post by local_crmdgeon »

vGPU wrote: post #68
local_crmdgeon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YIMBY reforms Weed legalization (NYS doesn't count) Gun laws

Weed legalization is just trading of one authority for another. The government expects to be able to exercise their revenue collection authority over it in exchange for their authority to ban it.

That's true in the no-homegrow states, but it's a significant new set of entitlements.

Also, the gun stuff is a huge win for reduction in state power.

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