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Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

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Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#51

Post by howmayiannoyyou »

solardev wrote: post #18

"Today, corrupt politicians put on another dog and pony show while continuing business as usual. Is our democracy secretly a farce? Details at 11."

No. We cannot have our cake and eat it too.

We cannot have unprotected, open borders for decades, and then expect to identify and track foreign internal threats AND not provide the USGOV the means to detect and surveil.

We cannot assume that because we're an HN regular who thinks power corrupts (it certainly does) the cost of that corruption is greater than what we pay if/when a foreign adversary acts against the US.

We simply cannot fulfill our obligations to our citizens or our allies if we cannot protect our home.

We cannot have it all. Welcome to the ugly real world.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#52

Post by dfxm12 »

dannyw wrote: post #10

Mass surveillance is antithetical to liberty, but direct, concrete harm is hard to identify. The surveillance complex has been pretty good at using secrecy, and perhaps even good internal controls, to limit everyday impact. How can we find real harms to win this fight? Or how can we get people to care?

How can we find real harms to win this fight? Or how can we get people to care?

Once issue is that people have to understand that even if you have nothing to hide, it doesn't matter. This level of surveillance is all about parallel construction. It's not meant to catch you in the act of doing something illegal, it's meant to give the government the tools they need to build (fabricate, even) a case against anyone they decide to target.

Another issue is the media, and how they will pretty much always toe the government line when it comes to law enforcement. Edward Snowden and other whistleblowers are way too easily painted an enemy of the state.

In general, people won't care until it affects them, and in all honesty, this likely won't.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#53

Post by Am4TIfIsER0ppos »

todd-davies wrote: post #36
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what are some recent examples of governments giving up power? I’ll pick a negative one: antitrust. Government retreated from its enforcement duty and powers for a few decades. In the vacuum, private interests asserted themselves.

Great example. Another one is state governments joining a union or federal system, such as US states joining the Union or European states joining the EU, and becoming bound by federal/EU law.

What? Joining the EU absolutely increases government power. It lets the government do things by saying "europe makes us".

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#54

Post by howmayiannoyyou »

0ckpuppet wrote: post #5

you mean spying on American citizens without a warrant?

That is NOT what 702 provides. 702 prohibits US citizens from being targeted (see: https://www.dni.gov/files/icotr/Section702-Basics-Infographi...)

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#55

Post by stronglikedan »

ethanbond wrote: post #41
dmix wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of written law in the US gov has grown exponentially since the 1970s. https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/20190903_R43056_5083d3b... The only time it slowed has been during brief gov shutdowns. As this report explains this includes plenty of non rules and administrative stuff and does count repeals but anyone who has followed Congress knows that the bulk of those bills is new spending and new rules impose…

Why should the government be shrinking when our population and the complexity of our society + economy is growing?

They should be minimal in their powers over the people and the bureaucratic waste they produce, but that doesn't mean they are shrinking. They can grow their administration workforce to accommodate the growing population and economy without adding new powers and while gaining efficiencies. Plus, the federal government should be very minimal, while not infringing on state's rights, which isn't the case any longer, unfortunately.

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#56

Post by teeray »

madamelic wrote: post #22
graphe wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The self checkout tsa is the opposite.

Only because we have been boiled to be ok with it. It used to just be x-ray and a bag scan. Now it is a backscatter plus a pat-down if required plus a bag scan. If you get flagged on either, your hands get swabbed down as well. The tech and number of searches is only going to increase over time as more contracts get in on the TSA grift. I have zero doubts at some point they will also begin domestic device scans ("jus…

> Think of what you could do if you could lock people into a booth by themselves as they do tasks to be let out.

Hey kids, welcome to the TSA escape room! Can you solve our puzzles before you miss your flight?

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#58

Post by [deleted] »

Am4TIfIsER0ppos wrote: post #53
todd-davies wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great example. Another one is state governments joining a union or federal system, such as US states joining the Union or European states joining the EU, and becoming bound by federal/EU law.

What? Joining the EU absolutely increases government power. It lets the government do things by saying "europe makes us".

[deleted]

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#59

Post by kingkawn »

howmayiannoyyou wrote: post #51
solardev wrote: post #18

"Today, corrupt politicians put on another dog and pony show while continuing business as usual. Is our democracy secretly a farce? Details at 11."

No. We cannot have our cake and eat it too. We cannot have unprotected, open borders for decades, and then expect to identify and track foreign internal threats AND not provide the USGOV the means to detect and surveil. We cannot assume that because we're an HN regular who thinks power corrupts (it certainly does) the cost of that corruption is greater than what we pay if/when a foreign adversary acts against the US.…

So lets give up the "destructive expansionist ambitions lead to global threats" part

Re: Today Is One of the Biggest Surveillance Votes. Will the FBI Stop Spying?

#60

Post by ethanbond »

stronglikedan wrote: post #55
ethanbond wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the government be shrinking when our population and the complexity of our society + economy is growing?

They should be minimal in their powers over the people and the bureaucratic waste they produce, but that doesn't mean they are shrinking. They can grow their administration workforce to accommodate the growing population and economy without adding new powers and while gaining efficiencies. Plus, the federal government should be very minimal, while not infringing on state's rights, which isn't the case any longer, unf…

Sure, the disagreement stems from one’s presumption of what “minimal” means.
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