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The Case for Memory Safe Roadmaps

nsa.gov

71–80 of 427 posts

Re: The Case for Memory Safe Roadmaps

#71
post #6

Their "Appendix: Memory Safe Languages" lists: C#, Go, Java, Python, Rust & Swift

Ada people scratching their heads....

Neither Ada nor Rust are completely memory-safe... and they are partially unsafe in completely different ways. But I guess people prefer the Rust explicitness.

Re: The Case for Memory Safe Roadmaps

#72

But how are we going to trade stocks in nano seconds without C++?!

A lot of shops do this in Java. Rust and Zig are usable but nobody's going to switch.

>A lot of shops do this in Java

Absolutely not in the memory-safe subset of Java though.

Re: The Case for Memory Safe Roadmaps

#73
post #32

I advise training programmers instead of throwing them in front of a screen without any training. Companies these days provides no training at all. When I was hired over 40 years ago, I spent plenty of time being trained for my first 3 months. Now, nothing, and you if you want to train a new person, you do it on your own time.

Why train when they just leave the company in a year for 10%+ more money.

Re: The Case for Memory Safe Roadmaps

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Next thing they'll be giving requirements for people building bridges, houses, and gas and electricity fittings. Seriously, I think the time has long since passed software needs regulating. It's a major part of modern society, and as far as I'm aware, most people aren't opposed to building standards in principle.

The wild west had a lot less danger and death than Hollywood makes it out to seem. Likewise, I'm going to miss the internet and computing as we know it now when it's regulated to shit like everything else. Nothing nice ever lasts.

Complete safety, or actual freedom. Pick one. You can't have both.

Re: The Case for Memory Safe Roadmaps

#75
post #25
post #6

Their "Appendix: Memory Safe Languages" lists: C#, Go, Java, Python, Rust & Swift

what do we do about javascript?

Kind of interesting that they didn't include it given python is there. (JS is not even mentioned in the document.) I guess they don't class it as a general purpose programming language? It's not as if we have other options in the browser, particularly, and while node can do a lot of stuff, it's got a clearly intended purpose. Or... maybe they consider it unsafe somehow, but that seems less likely.

Re: The Case for Memory Safe Roadmaps

#76
post #23

[flagged]

There's an important difference between an opaque "trust us" recommendation where it's broadly impossible to verify the claim (e.g., Dual_EC_DRBG), and one such as this which is fairly anodyne and merely intended to put more weight behind getting people to move forward in their choice of implementation languages. The NSA's split offensive/defensive responsibility is bad but that doesn't affect recommendations such as…

Sure. The problem is that externally one is left guessing which team something came from. I agree that this is a decent recommendation, but it would be much easier if those two responsibilities (offensive vs defensive) were two distinct agencies.

Re: The Case for Memory Safe Roadmaps

#77
post #32

I advise training programmers instead of throwing them in front of a screen without any training. Companies these days provides no training at all. When I was hired over 40 years ago, I spent plenty of time being trained for my first 3 months. Now, nothing, and you if you want to train a new person, you do it on your own time.

Sure, but even the best programmers can write buffer overflows and other memory issues. Not that average shops have any interest in actually training people, though.

Re: The Case for Memory Safe Roadmaps

#78
post #32

I advise training programmers instead of throwing them in front of a screen without any training. Companies these days provides no training at all. When I was hired over 40 years ago, I spent plenty of time being trained for my first 3 months. Now, nothing, and you if you want to train a new person, you do it on your own time.

"intentional training" (my term) is one of the most under utilized levers to pull for a team or organization to level up. Your observation aligns with my anecdotal experiences with teams, and it's sad to be honest.

The pushback I've received is something I'd categorize as "cart before the horse" - executives want to know exactly what will be achieved with such effort before approving any expenditure.

The teams I've been involved with - training has generally come organically and grass roots.

Re: The Case for Memory Safe Roadmaps

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It is ridiculous to equate a recommendation and a mandate.

Well, there are groups that want a government mandate for this, though.

If you don't know, Consumer Reports is paid by groups interested in encouraging the government to apply regulations to certain areas. A bike helmet manufacturer may pay them to create a report, host events, and otherwise lobby on their behalf to e.g. create regulations about people needing to use bike helmets.

It is my understanding that many Rust advocates, security researchers, and members of the Internet Society are effectively advocating/lobbying for partial government mandates of 'memory-safe languages'[0]:

> It’s not yet possible for government procurement to only buy memory-safe software. For example, you can’t say routers must be memory-safe top to bottom because no such products currently exist. But it may be possible for the government to say that newly developed custom components have to be memory-safe to slowly shift the industry forward.

> This would require some type of central coordination and trust in that system. The government could ask for a memory safety road map as part of procurement. The map would explain how the companies plan to eliminate memory-unsafe code in their products over time. The carrot approach for memory safety may include not just decreased future costs in cybersecurity, but also reliability and efficiency.

[0] https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2023...

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