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To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

nytimes.com

541–550 of 1001 posts

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprisingly yes, they were caught with much credit and appreciation to the detectives of SPD. In fact the police were very helpful in accessing support and counseling, and I should be completely honest that I would have described myself as loosely "anti police" until I had this experience. The issue was simply that these men were psychotic after using meth in an uninterrupted fashion, and emboldened by the fact that…

I appreciate this problem and empathize with what you've been through. I live in the bay with a toddler. I presume by "treated criminally" you mean jail time. But by all accounts and data, jail time makes drug habits significantly worse [1]. The extreme version of this is just dragnet police enforcement turning every simple drug use into ever-worsening drug use (aka the weed-to-fentanyl pipeline). In your specific ca…

I think we probably agree to a large extent. There are a lot of comments here, so I want to quote one of my responses to another person in an effort to inject some consistency, but tl;dr the reason I think decriminalization is the issue is that AFAIK our criminal justice system is the only way we can confiscate drugs or force a person into treatment such as inpatient detox and/or rehab:

""" To me it's not so much about punishing drug use (jail time), it's about stopping drug addiction (intervention and recovery). For example I think intervening in such a way that a user is confirmed to get at least a few hours of sleep before potentially using meth again would be a big start.

I'll admit that I support confiscating drugs when found, but I'm not advocating that arrest is always appropriate. I am in favor of punishing selling meth, which I acknowledge is perhaps hypocritical given my other beliefs knowing that plenty of people sell to support their habits.

I do think it's important to have a mechanism of mandatory intervention, and my non-lawyer understanding is that criminalizing drugs is really the only way to put mandatory intervention on the table. I met mothers who could not force their children into rehab, for example. I should be clear that I don't feel this way about all drugs, but I think that methamphetamine specifically poses a risk to the safety of both users and people around them that merits mandatory intervention.

If we had functional mechanisms to to enact mandatory interventions for users that were non-criminal I'm definitely open to that. Depending on the targeted success rate it seems like inpatient detox + rehab would be required in many cases, and I am simply not aware of non-judicial ways we can force a person into those circumstances against their will (which in the case of meth I admit I support even if that opinion is controversial).

I am not an expert, but nonetheless I'm now entangled with the topic as one that defines significant aspects of my life (loss of smell and hearing, PTSD, facial disfiguration). I think we can do better than we have been, both recently and since Nixon, but I think that having tough conversations is part of how we'll get better. My experience is that people in my situation frequently have our perspectives invalidated as "politically incorrect" or otherwise irrelevant [...], and I wanted to speak up to make sure people know that we exist and we don't want our numbers to grow. """

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#542

So much sympathy for drug users and business owners, but what about the private citizens who get victimized by these drug users? I was beaten nearly to death (in broad daylight, in a residential neighborhood) in Seattle in 2020 by two men enabled to descend into meth addiction by permissive policies. In my victim support group I met so many people - innocent people - permanently injured & disfigured like me, or raped…

What happened to the people who assaulted you? Were they fully prosecuted?

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#543
post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just take away their meth. That's it. All the rest of what you wrote is just pointless exaggeration.

And how do you propose to do that? By isolating them? Okay, how do you do that? Put them in already overcrowded prisons where there aren't free cells, because the prisons are full of people convicted of nonviolent drug offenses? Put them in treatment centers...that don't have the beds? Or the staff? Or do you intend to cut the supply, using some technique which has been undiscovered by US law enforcement, fifty years…

I'm not proposing doing anything at all to "them". I would enforce the laws making it illegal to sell. It won't remove everything, it would just reduce supply.

> Put them in already overcrowded prisons where there aren't free cells, because the prisons are full of people convicted of nonviolent drug offenses?

You don't want to put them in prison because they are already there? Hu?

> Put them in treatment centers...that don't have the beds? Or the staff?

This isn't even true.

> which has been undiscovered by US law enforcement, fifty years into the "war on drugs"

And yet somehow every city that isn't Portland manages to do it sufficiently well.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#544
post #376
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Police are a reactive force, they're useless to prevent or break up an assault unless it's a very ineffective (slow) attack This seems like you’re implying that stricter enforcement and tougher punishments are useless? I tend to agree, we saw bright and clear as day with the “war on drugs” that being more vicious to addicts didn’t work and the problem only grew. Im certainly no expert though, and what often seems t…

>I tend to agree, we saw bright and clear as day with the “war on drugs” that being more vicious to addicts didn’t work and the problem only grew. Drug use has grown much faster under the current regime of tolerance of drug use. There were lots of problems with the war on drugs, but the idea that it didn't reduce drug use isn't based on evidence. As an analogy, skin cancer had been rising despite sunscreen.

Do you have any actual evidence of this? I would love to see it. I wouldn't be particularly shocked either way to find that drug use has increased faster in places that decriminalized or not, but it's an important starting point for discussions. Assuming everyone is being honest in their data-gathering as well as consistent in methods.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#545
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think other cities bussing and flying homeless people out west outweighs every possible policy change. We’ll never know if any of these policies stood a chance due to the USA viewing the west coast as a dumping ground for homeless people. Next time you’re passing by these people, ask them where they are from originally. Locals are like 20% of the problem.

I don’t think this is it. A lot of the unhoused in Seattle are locals or in state, and many of the out of state are from neighboring states such as Idaho or other West Coast states. Rather I think the problem is that half assed decriminalization efforts simply aren’t enough and that drug overdose has become a much more severe issue because of the opioid epidemic and the proliferation of fentanyl. What needs to happen…

> What needs to happen for decriminalization to work is much better social support for addicts, including safe use sites staffed with nurses, free health care for addicts including detox hospitalization and substance abuse treatments, social housing including housing specifically for recovering addicts and active addicts

How many productive members of society does it take to support each drug addict? Should there be any calculation, or should we say "whatever it takes"?

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#546
post #519
post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sociologists recently performed a large multi-region study of homelessness, drug use, etc. It turns out that there’s no real correlation between having drug addicts on the streets and the level of drug use in the area or even mental illness. Unemployment doesn’t even predict homelessness, and neither does weather, or laws pertaining to the homeless. By far, the best predictor is housing affordability and availability…

Link to study?

https://homelessnesshousingproblem.com/

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#547
post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similarly it can be illegal to be high on something exotic and out in public. As hot takes go that seems fairly cool. Nope, try suggesting that in much of the mainstream/popular internet and you'll be immediately pounced on for discriminating against the homeless (and then the people who said that will get pounced on for saying homeless rather than "unhoused"). "So you think it should be legal for rich people to ge…

Just adding my context that i have had this conversion on the "mainstream internet" (reddit front page threads) and not been attacked for it. Honestly it seems to me like that stuff is happening less and less often. It just comes with not talking to literal children all the time. I'm all for privacy but i think in these arguments we should really be allowed to know who is 14 and who isn't. I think a big part of the t…

I'd say just the opposite. People who think age means they have life experience are doing the most to damage the quality of discussion. Nowadays if you're born in the right class you can reach age 30 - hell, you can make it all the way to retirement - while never being exposed to any real consequences for your actions (and in fact everyone around you will go out of their way to prevent that happening). There are plenty of literal 14 year olds who have a lot more to contribute than a PMC "excellent sheep" who coasted right through school, university, and a not-quite-clearly-nepotism career in middle management or consulting.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#548

So much sympathy for drug users and business owners, but what about the private citizens who get victimized by these drug users? I was beaten nearly to death (in broad daylight, in a residential neighborhood) in Seattle in 2020 by two men enabled to descend into meth addiction by permissive policies. In my victim support group I met so many people - innocent people - permanently injured & disfigured like me, or raped…

I'm a Canadian who travelled to Seattle recently and I found that city legitimately scary downtown. The addicts were unstable and violent like nothing I'd ever seen, even in some of the worst parts of our country. Walking through downtown Seattle at night with a suitcase trying to find my hotel is the first time in my life I thought I was about to be attacked or robbed, but thankfully I only had stuff thrown at me by…

A friend of mine recently closed his store in Seattle, permanently, and relocated to another county. He had the door smashed, and the organized thieves ransacked the place, and caused a lot of costly damage. (He showed me the security camera footage.) The police not only did not come, they told him they no longer responded to property crimes, only violent crimes.

The law does not allow citizens to protect their property, and the police won't, either. So what to do? Leave.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#549
post #419

So much sympathy for drug users and business owners, but what about the private citizens who get victimized by these drug users? I was beaten nearly to death (in broad daylight, in a residential neighborhood) in Seattle in 2020 by two men enabled to descend into meth addiction by permissive policies. In my victim support group I met so many people - innocent people - permanently injured & disfigured like me, or raped…

Stay strapped. Sorry to be harsh, but it’s not policies that keep you and yours safe. You need to protect you and yours and government policies aren’t going to protect you from hard drug users. Sorry you had a terrible experience but since ancient times people have weapons to defend against any enemy.

I will say here what I have said many times in real life: if I had been carrying a gun I would probably have been shot with it - dead men tell no tales and they certainly ran my pockets.

I was jumped from in front and behind by two people by complete surprise and tackled to the ground. The amount of time between the beginning of the assault and losing consciousness was only a few seconds. From the video it looks like they already tried to kill me by repeatedly stomping on my head and kicking me in the face. I'm speculating but I think if they found a gun on me they would have just shot me with it.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#550

So much sympathy for drug users and business owners, but what about the private citizens who get victimized by these drug users? I was beaten nearly to death (in broad daylight, in a residential neighborhood) in Seattle in 2020 by two men enabled to descend into meth addiction by permissive policies. In my victim support group I met so many people - innocent people - permanently injured & disfigured like me, or raped…

“Enabled to descend into meth addiction”

Sorry this happened to you but every human has the god given right to use whatever substances they please and no government can tell them otherwise.

Perhaps your anger should be focused at the government officials and local policies for allowing these people to live in tents on public property and use drugs in public.

Drugs are for people with jobs to enjoy.

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