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Who will lead the charge to a four-day work week?

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Re: Who will lead the charge to a four-day work week?

#131
post #128
post #13

I've "corrupted" (from the point of view of GDP productivity and such) a lot of people into asking for (and mostly getting...) a 32h/week work schedule. I've been doing it for almost 8 years now, and at this point, it's simply a non-negotiable in any sort of employment discussions (that, and not carrying a pager). I work Mon-Thu, 8h/day, and I'm generally unreachable Fri/Sat/Sun (doesn't mean I won't put in a long we…

I'm currently working 32h/w and will possibly need to start job hunting for remote. I was prepared to go back to 40h but... I really don't want to. It was life changing. Wondering if I should just hunt for 32h/w offers, if I could potentially miss on great 40h opportunities, etc. What's the success rate of asking for 32h/w in offers not advertised as such?

None of my 32h/wk arrangements have been listed as such.

If it's an interesting 40h position, talk to them and put 32h as one of your non-negotiables in early conversations. Some will tell you they're not willing to consider it, and the conversation is done. Some are willing to consider it.

Re: Who will lead the charge to a four-day work week?

#132
post #89
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I hope the 4-day school week doesn't exacerbate the education / illiteracy crisis that we are already seeing in America. Not sure if less time in school would help with this, though difficult to comprehend the nuances associated with experiments like this until the data is available.

The recent increase in the number of schools going 4-day is mostly a teacher attraction and retention strategy. There’s an ongoing severe teacher shortage, and poor rural districts in states with low average teacher pay are catching the worst of it (for obvious reasons). The alternative is the school district basically collapses from lack of staffing, or else has to come up with a bunch more money. It may or may not…

Weird to frame it as a "teacher shortage" especially when the rest of your [great] comment correctly calls out insufficient pay as the real problem.

Re: Who will lead the charge to a four-day work week?

#133
post #36
post #4

Curious among folks here: Are you aware of companies that allow for or even encourage four day work weeks?

Overtly advertising it? No. Hasn't stopped me (and quite a few others) from getting 4 day weeks out of them. The trick is being senior enough (or in demand enough) that you can get one company to agree to a 32h week for you (and be willing to walk - I've interviewed with very interesting companies who weren't willing to consider it, and so we ended the discussions). Once you have it in some form or another, you're go…

I'd love to learn the secret incantation from "senior enough" employees who have managed to negotiate these kinds of things. I've been at it for 25+ years and only managed to negotiate pay (never large increases, and not from many companies). When it comes to your terms of employment like hours, vacation, benefits, sick time, and so on, it's always "The boilerplate employment agreement is written by god and cannot be changed by mortals. Sign it unmodified or GTFO!"

Re: Who will lead the charge to a four-day work week?

#134
post #13

I've "corrupted" (from the point of view of GDP productivity and such) a lot of people into asking for (and mostly getting...) a 32h/week work schedule. I've been doing it for almost 8 years now, and at this point, it's simply a non-negotiable in any sort of employment discussions (that, and not carrying a pager). I work Mon-Thu, 8h/day, and I'm generally unreachable Fri/Sat/Sun (doesn't mean I won't put in a long we…

I negotiated a 4 day week as well and won't go back either. You cant beat having a three day weekend and Fridays off. A co worker does the same but takes Mondays off which works for his family better. I would also like to try a split week: work mon-tues, off wed, work thurs-fri, off sat-sun. This way you have a mini weekend giving you two "friday nights" and there's no weekly gauntlet to run.

In college the big goal was to have weekend wednesdays where you only had classes MT, RF. It was pretty great.

Re: Who will lead the charge to a four-day work week?

#136
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it aligns better with my family (the local public school is only Mon-Thu as well) This is interesting and makes me think the answer to the title's question is public schools. Most Americans are not in a position to individually ask their employer for a 4-day week, but if the local school system does it, suddenly there's a unified block of thousands of people who really need Friday off to take care of their kids. I…

Interesting. I hope the 4-day school week doesn't exacerbate the education / illiteracy crisis that we are already seeing in America. Not sure if less time in school would help with this, though difficult to comprehend the nuances associated with experiments like this until the data is available.

> doesn't exacerbate the education / illiteracy crisis that we are already seeing in America.

My personal belief is that this is due to different factors and that it is quite a complex problem that is worsened by oversimplification. Notably that all measurements are quite fuzzy and there's incentives to advocate the metric that suits ones bias rather than account for the fuzziness of the metrics.

I think what's good about the American education system is that we aren't test focused and that we don't have a singular exam that is critical to one's future success. I think this encourages creativity, which is necessary especially in STEM fields and especially as we move into the modern era with AI. I also think test based systems (as you may see in most of Asia like China's Gaokao or Korea's Suneung) put far too much pressure on memorization (lack of generalization) and are especially stressful to children's mental health and takes away from all the soft skills that one learns in schooling (and is especially important). I think it's important we have many opportunities for people to recover from mistakes or environmental situations that these tests do not account for and is likely a bigger problem for western societies and especially American culture.

But the big thing is that there's strong evidence that a child under 10 can learn calculus. I'm not saying we need to do that, but certainly we can put more onto our children who are far smarter than we give credit to. But we may need to radically think our education program to perform such feats at scale. I do think there is a danger to solve "no student left behind" through decreasing standards rather than creating more nuanced educational methods and metrics (we see this even in other countries too). There are certainly larger incentive problems too. Such as in the modern world it is actually a rational decision for these children to desire to be "YouTube Stars" rather than say an engineer and that's not resolved by mocking them but being realistic about the risk reward environment we've created and our social devaluation of these jobs. This is a cultural phenomena that the Asian cultures seem to have solved where performing well in school is considered cool, but there are so many cultural aspects at play that this is hard to disentangle and pinpoint what exactly would be the way to create a similar phenomena in the west. Most certainly we need to disregard all parental sentiment of "well I didn't learn this when I was in school" if we are to operate on the premise that our society gets smarter as the world gets smarter because this should instead be seen as an expected result that is desired. But that may have political ramifications that adds to the complexity.

> though difficult to comprehend the nuances associated with experiments like this until the data is available.

I think, unfortunately, this is one of those many situations where we're never going to have sufficient data until we take a leap of faith. There's far too many issues where if we wait to act on experimental data that we'll wait till the ends of time because performing such experiments are difficult to do and especially in a controlled way. Even more so considering the difficulties in decoupling extraneous variables from the system and finding the key causal ones. In the real world you kinda just have to make that leap at times and be willing to revert if it is a mistake rather than doubling down and also be willing to consider colliding variables being adequate explanations for lack of success rather than the variable that was actively modified. (Fuck, experimentation and evaluation is hard. I really wish this was better recognized. The world is fucking fuzzy and we're fucking dumb)

All of this is of course my opinions and I'm explicitly not adding sources to claims because I'm not trying to sound authoritative here but rather thinking aloud to promote discussion on the topic to form better communal consensus and how we as a community can figure out answers to these complex problems. So these are my views and the data I see. (Let's also try to encourage discussion like this where we aren't asserting authoritative conclusions because certainly none of us are authorities in this regard and certainly there are no hard conclusions from existing authorities)

Re: Who will lead the charge to a four-day work week?

#137
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overtly advertising it? No. Hasn't stopped me (and quite a few others) from getting 4 day weeks out of them. The trick is being senior enough (or in demand enough) that you can get one company to agree to a 32h week for you (and be willing to walk - I've interviewed with very interesting companies who weren't willing to consider it, and so we ended the discussions). Once you have it in some form or another, you're go…

I'd love to learn the secret incantation from "senior enough" employees who have managed to negotiate these kinds of things. I've been at it for 25+ years and only managed to negotiate pay (never large increases, and not from many companies). When it comes to your terms of employment like hours, vacation, benefits, sick time, and so on, it's always "The boilerplate employment agreement is written by god and cannot be…

At least in my experience, it really helps to have one senior person lead the way.

Our company hired a greybeard with a rock solid condition of his employment being a four day work week. After that, it was much easier for "normal" employees to switch to it since management was familiar with the idea and saw that he was a very productive employee.

I switched to four day work weeks when I was 29 (based on his example) and have been very happy with it.

Re: Who will lead the charge to a four-day work week?

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the environment. The simple fact of the matter for many students (In America at least) is that it's not a lack of time in class that's leading to a lack of education. One of if not THE primary function of primary school in America today is to be a place for kids to go while the worker bees go to work now that its no longer socially acceptable for kids to run free.

I think most people think school is like pokemon training, where X minutes = Y XP, and more minutes in class = more XP, thus leading to higher-level students. I remember when I was in school we missed a few extra days from snowstorms, so they added several minutes onto the school day to "make up for the missed time". It was so obviously stupid then, but no school administrator listened to me, because what does a high…

> I think most people think school is like pokemon training, where X minutes = Y XP, and more minutes in class = more XP, thus leading to higher-level students.

To be fair, most people think this is how productivity works in any domain. It's certainly true if your job is to turn a hand crank all day producing widgets and under the assumption that you have equal energy throughout the day (but even accounting for that you still get the effect that more time = more widgets). But that most certainly is not true in the modern world and definitely not with any task that requires creativity. I'm actually more shocked at how many developers believe this considering I think we've all been in plenty of situations where more time debugging creates more bugs and the solution is to walk away, go do something else, and come back later. Maybe the problem is simply momentum and the coefficient of status stubbornness.

Re: Who will lead the charge to a four-day work week?

#139
post #13

I've "corrupted" (from the point of view of GDP productivity and such) a lot of people into asking for (and mostly getting...) a 32h/week work schedule. I've been doing it for almost 8 years now, and at this point, it's simply a non-negotiable in any sort of employment discussions (that, and not carrying a pager). I work Mon-Thu, 8h/day, and I'm generally unreachable Fri/Sat/Sun (doesn't mean I won't put in a long we…

Wonder how many software devs would be able to do this. When I have a long weekend, a lot of times, its 'finally, no interruptions so I can get some work done', and end up working. Guess, if you have an itch, could fill it with open source projects instead.

> Guess, if you have an itch, could fill it with open source projects instead.

Somewhat related, but I do wonder what this community will look like once humans enter a post scarce (or mostly) world. Which a 4 day weekend seems like a step in that direction. Along with the other aspects of what humans will do with their new found free time. Which seems especially interesting in a consumer based economy.

Re: Who will lead the charge to a four-day work week?

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the environment. The simple fact of the matter for many students (In America at least) is that it's not a lack of time in class that's leading to a lack of education. One of if not THE primary function of primary school in America today is to be a place for kids to go while the worker bees go to work now that its no longer socially acceptable for kids to run free.

I think most people think school is like pokemon training, where X minutes = Y XP, and more minutes in class = more XP, thus leading to higher-level students. I remember when I was in school we missed a few extra days from snowstorms, so they added several minutes onto the school day to "make up for the missed time". It was so obviously stupid then, but no school administrator listened to me, because what does a high…

It’s hard to measure education service quality at the scale of an entire province or state.

We use proxies like standardized testing to avoid each school self-assessing as excellent. But tests can be gamed through cheating. States distribute funding on a literal per capita per day formula. It’s much harder to commit time tracking fraud. Incentives that encourage butts in seats of course can be gamed. Snow days are avoided through half days and NYC once had a “school day” that was just a video call long enough to take attendance.

Attendance maximizing limits flexibility and greatness in pedagogy. However it guarantees a bare minimum service level. It also aligns with schools’ secondary function as daycare.

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