Beeper Mini is back • Hacker News Board

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#701

Post by Miner49er » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

sbuk wrote: post #676

Miner49er wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What dwarfs iMessage in the US? I would assume that it is the most used messaging platform in the country.

Facebook Messenger - approx 140 million users, then WhatsApp at approx 75 million. iOS has approx 136 million users (not sure if that includes iPad). So "dwarfs" might be a bit extreme. However, its extremely unlikely that all the iOS users use iMessage and none use either Facebook or WhatsApp. Statista has the figures, but I'm not going to pay $149 per month to find out more! Source: Googling around, so take it for…

With this numbers I would still guess that iMessage has WhatsApp beat.

I would also guess it does more volume then FB Messenger, even if it technically has less users.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#702

Post by mongol » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 9:40 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #669

seanp2k2 wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All Apple needs to do is send a few scary C&D letters from their army of lawyers and this will be done. If they run the infrastructure for imessage, I'm sure there's something in a ToS somewhere that talks about spoofing device IDs and unauthorized use of their services blah blah Apple's sole discretion. In theory I love it but in reality it'll be dead soon as Apple has too much to gain from the walled garden they've…

Beeper isn’t using Apple services (at least not in Beeper Mini, their new e2ee iMessage client), and thus is not subject to any Terms of Service from Apple. They’re publishing client software, which is protected expression provided it’s original and doesn’t infringe any trademarks or copyrights. The end users are the ones potentially violating the ToS by connecting to Apple APIs. Apple has no basis to tell Beeper to…

But as part of developing the application? Can they realistically do that without violating ToS?

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#703

Post by knd775 » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 9:40 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #334

jay-barronville wrote: post #228

I’m a former Android fanatic turned iPhone user. I still own Android devices, but my primary device is an iPhone. I haven’t had something excite me as much as this Beeper Mini situation in years—I love that they’re doing this. One of the things that got me to switch to the iPhone a few years ago was the fact that it seemed Apple was actually doing a lot of the right things when it came to privacy and security. Obviou…

If you want privacy a de-googled android phone is far better than apple.

Yes, but a truly de-googled Android phone is a huge pain. Many apps rely on play services, and the open source alternatives still don't fully work.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#704

Post by Shekelphile » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

arilotter wrote: post #347

mike_d wrote: post #330

> If Apple insists, we would consider adding a pager emoji to metadata on all messages sent via Beeper Mini. This would make it easy for Messages App to filter out any messages from Beeper Mini users. As an iPhone user I would love for them to do this so I can not communicate with these users. The green/blue bubble gives me an indication of the encryption being used, and presenting a blue bubble while the messages ar…

Beeper Mini does not MITM messages - it's a reverse engineering of how iMessage works, and runs entirely on-device, without putting messages thru Beeper's servers. It talks directly to Apple and pretends to be an iPhone. You're thinking of Beeper Cloud, which does iMessage thru a Mac Mini in the cloud.

> Beeper Mini does not MITM messages - it's a reverse engineering of how iMessage works, and runs entirely on-device, without putting messages thru Beeper's servers. It talks directly to Apple and pretends to be an iPhone.

It doesn't matter. It's closed source and not easily audited - they could easily just be doing a naive solution and piping every message back to themselves after it's decrypted by the client.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#705

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

js2 wrote: post #471

> Messages will be sent and received via your email address rather than phone number. [...] Even worse, when iPhone customers added an Android phone number to an existing iMessage secure encrypted group chat, the Messages app would by default switch the entire group chat to using unencrypted, unsecure SMS. These two Messages features combine to create a terrible UX. When someone starts a group chat in Messages and in…

[deleted]

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#706

Post by AaronFriel » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

borski wrote: post #553

rezonant wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just one app that spoke a single protocol that all phones implement, like SMS used to be. That way you wouldn't have to install and juggle 20 apps to cover all of your friend's preferences, and manage which type of messenger they prefer over time.

Because then SMS would never progress, and we’d all be stuck with 140 characters under the hood along with optional subjects and zero security. There was no push for RCS until iMessage came along.

If vendors were required to conform to standards, I suspect we would have had something like RCS a lot sooner.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#707

Post by Miner49er » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

pathartl wrote: post #696

LordKeren wrote: post #26

I think one of the underlying issues is that many are now going to be hesitant to even bother with Beeper Mini anymore. I don’t think there is going to be a high tolerance for this game of cat and mouse from the end user perspective I also don’t think goading apple is going to do much here either. Regardless of the current feelings around apple’s walled garden, they are not going to suddenly keel over and give up on…

I'd be willing to put up with it if it were free, like the good ol MSN messenger / AIM days.

It is free

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#708

Post by boiler_up800 » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 9:44 PM UTC

If nothing else it’s a fun game of cat and mouse in the most David vs Goliath way possible, to mix metaphors.

Is it likely that Apple just has an engineer working on reverse engineering Beeper to find and patch the latest method?

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#709

Post by meepmorp » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 9:44 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #270

upon_drumhead wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why stop there? Why not force every iOS app to support running on android?

Because it's possible for competitors to build replacements for the rest of the apps.

It's possible for competitors to build replacements for iMessage, too. In fact, in many parts of the world, those competing apps are more popular than iMessage. You can go to the app store right now and install these competing apps, usually for free.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#710

Post by smoldesu » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 9:45 PM UTC

rewgs wrote: post #593

Man, what an absolute waste of engineering talent. I don't understand those in this thread celebrating the "hacker spirit." The real "hacker spirit" would be something like, I don't know, building a better alternative to iMessage. This is just a game of whack-a-mole, destined to lose.

Making a competitive alternative to iMessage is a game of whack-a-mole that you will always lose, too. Apple would never give a third-party the same level of control they have to integrate with iOS.

So, Beeper's approach here at least makes sense to me. They aren't representing the "hacker spirit" like Torvalds or Stallman, but they are highlighting how arbitrary some software limitations can be. Their efforts here, wasted or not, will be cited when iMessage finds itself in court next time. And to Beeper, a company founded on the idea of unifying all messaging clients, that may be a worthwhile business investment.