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Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people

#161

Post by pdonis »

qingcharles wrote: post #91
s1artibartfast wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe, and I think the data supports, that the US prison population is due to the number of laws we have, and the harshness of our penalties. A false conviction rate of a few percent does not explain an order of magnitude level differences in incarceration between countries. I think an interesting question is what portion of the US population would be incarcerated if the totality of our laws were applied to every…

Opinion of a criminal: I don't think there are too many criminal laws at the State level. That is definitely not the reason for high incarceration rates. The guys who are in prison didn't randomly trip over a law they didn't know existed. 99% of the laws are the same as they've been since pre-history: don't hurt someone, don't steal etc. Sentencing to prison is probably the key problem. Criminals need help. Outright…

What about non-violent drug possession? AFAIK that all by itself accounts for a significant number of incarcerated people. Laws criminalizing that are a product of the war on drugs, not embodying something in statute that's been a common law crime throughout human history.

Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people

#162

Post by UncleMeat »

lesuorac wrote: post #145
qingcharles wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with the poisonous tree doctrine in your opinion? I find it isn't used widely enough against police and prosecutor misconduct. There are too many ways out of it for them.

My main problem is that the person that suffers from the poisonous tree is the public at large. The actual criminal in this scenario (the police officer) gets off carte blanche for breaking the law. Additionally, if they managed to find evidence then an additional criminal (the defendants) also gets carte blanche. The only people punished is the public that now have two known criminals that evaded justice!

The limitations of section 1983 to let you sue cops for violating your rights are not the fault of the exclusionary rule.

Without the exclusionary rule the 4th amendment doesn't really exist. Cops could just violate your 4th amendment rights and then either arrest you if they find evidence of a crime or go on their merry way. Yes, some people who committed crimes go unpunished because the state fucked up and couldn't manage to protect their legal rights while investigating and arresting them. We should place a high burden on the state to dramatically disincentivize it from violating our rights, even the rights of people who commit crimes.

Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people

#163

Post by s1artibartfast »

pdonis wrote: post #161
qingcharles wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opinion of a criminal: I don't think there are too many criminal laws at the State level. That is definitely not the reason for high incarceration rates. The guys who are in prison didn't randomly trip over a law they didn't know existed. 99% of the laws are the same as they've been since pre-history: don't hurt someone, don't steal etc. Sentencing to prison is probably the key problem. Criminals need help. Outright…

What about non-violent drug possession? AFAIK that all by itself accounts for a significant number of incarcerated people. Laws criminalizing that are a product of the war on drugs, not embodying something in statute that's been a common law crime throughout human history.

My understanding that this is largely a thing of the past. Simple possession doesn't result in time, although dealing can

Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people

#164

Post by [deleted] »

pc86 wrote: post #137
incahoots wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've gone through the system in a similar fashion, but with no where near the same outcome as you did. If I hadn't gone through a similar situation I would almost believe that you were making it up, that's how ridiculous this is. For context I got stopped in a car with a friend who had weed (unknown to me at the time), had a really old warrant for something like a missed child support payment (also didn't know), and…

Unfortunately, the common refrain in scenarios like this is that it's your fault. Even ignoring the weed, which I think a lot of people would have sympathy for, you owed child support that wasn't paid and had a [bench, presumably] warrant out for your arrest. The simple fact of the matter is that most people don't owe court-mandated child support at any point in their lives, most people that do owe it pay it, and mos…

[deleted]

Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people

#165

Post by pc86 »

k2enemy wrote: post #155
pc86 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, the common refrain in scenarios like this is that it's your fault. Even ignoring the weed, which I think a lot of people would have sympathy for, you owed child support that wasn't paid and had a [bench, presumably] warrant out for your arrest. The simple fact of the matter is that most people don't owe court-mandated child support at any point in their lives, most people that do owe it pay it, and mos…

I think you misread the parent. They didn't have an outstanding warrant, the driver did.

You're right! I'm sure many would still view this as an "oh well, your own fault" type of thing though.

Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people

#166

Post by tiahura »

csours wrote: post #24
tiahura wrote: post #16

The article doesn't prove anyone was actually innocent, only that dodgy science was admitted. In the highlighted case, I'm assuming the victim's multiple identifications of Odom as the perp was also fairly persuasive to the jury.

Have we discovered how to prove a negative and I missed it? Or do we still have to look at the balance of evidence? In other words: in most justice systems, the prosecution must produce evidence of guilt, they hold the burden. It's also very important to know that (in the US justice system), evidence of innocence is not persuasive to appellate courts; they are looking for abuse of process. --- Now, cognition is a dif…

"Have we discovered how to prove a negative"

Yes. You prove Odom was in Canada at the time, or that no crime actually occurred, or that someone else did it, etc. There are multiple ways to prove he didn't do it.

Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people

#167

Post by tiahura »

Clubber wrote: post #124
tiahura wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being primarily a civil attorney, I'm well aware of the disproportionate number of former prosecutors on the bench. A couple of points: 1. Most prosecutors are liberals. It's not like right wing law students go looking for jobs in prosecutor's offices. I can't think of any from my class way back when. 2. The problem is more that judges and prosecutors are old colleagues. The slant is that they all know the defendants…

>prosecutors tend to only bring cases where the defendant is clearly guilty. How does that square with overcharging? Seems like a trend is to throw a bunch of charges at person in hopes they will cop a plea deal, which is considered a win. (cheating IMO). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overcharging_(law)

They charge you with the crime you did, and a bunch of bs charges as well.

This puts pressure on you to take a deal pleading to a reduced charge and all the other charges go away.

Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people

#168

Post by Ekaros »

qingcharles wrote: post #107
oooyay wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm off base here, but this seems to be absolute nonsense: > Like many on EM, Ross was never granted movement outside his home even once, not even to buy food. His sister, a manager at Securitas, helped when she could, but work got in the way sometimes, he said. So, they replaced the box you sit in with a box that you pay for and provide no additional services with all the same restrictions. What the fu…

I wasn't allowed to leave for food. The judge told me he would not grant my request to leave for food. "Have you heard of Amazon? Order it online." he said. Then when I ordered it online he gave me five months in jail saying he never gave me permission to use the Internet :D

And this why there should be mechanism to throw judges and prosecutors for this sort of misconduct in prisons, for sufficiently lengthy sentences. With inmates being the peers they prosecuted.

Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people

#169

Post by RetpolineDrama »

qingcharles wrote: post #139
incahoots wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've gone through the system in a similar fashion, but with no where near the same outcome as you did. If I hadn't gone through a similar situation I would almost believe that you were making it up, that's how ridiculous this is. For context I got stopped in a car with a friend who had weed (unknown to me at the time), had a really old warrant for something like a missed child support payment (also didn't know), and…

No, you're not taking anything away. Your situation is (sadly) very common indeed. And as you say, if you start missing child support payments the judge will hit you with contempt charges and put you straight back in jail for several months to teach you a lesson. If you had ended up in jail the case might have run on for months or years. Once you are inside a jail you lose most contact with your attorney and your sup…

>And as you say, if you start missing child support payments the judge will hit you with contempt charges and put you straight back in jail for several months to teach you a lesson.

All of this should be illegal, debtors prisons by another name is all this is.

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