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Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

reuters.com

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Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#641

Post by mistermann »

somenameforme wrote: post #637
mistermann wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all well and good, but I sincerely believe that it does not address the question: why are humans, including the genuinely much smarter than average folks here on HN, unable to have a very serious discussion about ~~whether~~ the degree to which "democracy" in the US (or Western countries in general), is fake? I believe it is very fair to say that it is not a question of whether it is fake(!) at all (as a bina…

I'd expect in this exact case the answer might be easier. It's because fake has an ambiguous meaning. It includes everything from the gamut of completely absurd such as elections aren't even actually happening, to the improbable but possible such as elections being rigged, to the self evident such as the people being elected, and their subsequent actions taken, being completely unrepresentative of the people or their…

Maybe.

Let's say an election actually was rigged - do you think that is more important than whether our "democracy" is legitimate, always?

Do you think 10% of the HN user base has the ability to discuss this question, at all, and without losing control?

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#642

Post by spurgu »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #562
drekk wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already not legal to smoke in public for weed and in most places for cigarettes. Frankly I don't think outright prohibition addresses that any better than the existing system. Nor do I see how having bodily autonomy is necessarily a tyranny of the masses. In all seriousness, Utah sounds like your ideal so long as you stay outside of Salt Lake City. I'm glad to no longer be a resident

> Nor do I see how having bodily autonomy is necessarily a tyranny of the masses. When it intrudes upon the bodily autonomy of others (e.g. second hand smoke, which I am constantly facing and suffering from in the Bay Area).

Outdoors?

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#643

Post by staplers »

callalex wrote: post #390
staplers wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's own developer documentation outlines how notifications can trigger when crossing a physical boundary. Apps notifications can trigger if you enter a "protest zone" for example then gov will know everyone who was there.

That location determination is done on-device.

But the notification receipt is sent home.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#644

Post by staplers »

rsync wrote: post #619
mistrial9 wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California with the support of Gavin Newsom is building "no go" zones for wildfire response. Sounds OK except - a video recording of a local Mayor at a wildfire update press conference, asking with deference, when the main highway to his town will re-open, and the response from a tense and aggressive CHP leader was "maybe that road will be closed for six months, maybe next year" with no respect... instantly snapped a…

Do you have a link to this ? I would like to see this interaction…

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/...

The most insidious part: "Because the system actually monitors the regions, you don’t need to request always permissions for your app"

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#645

Post by fsflover »

steelframe wrote: post #640
averageRoyalty wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an excellent reference. It is worth emphasising though, this does not make the device secure. No matter what OS you put on, there's still a proprietary baseband blob with executuon permissions underneath. All of these devices are built compromised.

Absolutely! I was focusing on moving toward a generally more privacy-centric way of using a mobile device. Of course an insecure device can be made to neutralize any privacy-protecting measures I've described. However just because a device has a vulnerability doesn't necessarily mean that it will be compromised. In fact I'd be surprised if there is more than, say, a 1% chance that any given random Pixel 7 phone is ac…

> And maybe efforts from organizations like Librem can push us toward modems with fully OSS firmware.

Also Pinephone: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36659544

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#646

Post by flossposse »

standardUser wrote: post #495
verisimi wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want the state to write laws to prevent it spying on its citizens?

I want legislators to pass laws that prevent spying by the executive branch. I don't care who writes them.

A bigger problem, IMO, is that companies are allowed to hold and exploit this data in the first place, with no obligations to act in their customer's interests. Google and Apple arguably govern our lives just as much as the actual government, but with fewer mechanisms for representation, transparency, or accountability.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#647

Post by somenameforme »

mistermann wrote: post #641
somenameforme wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd expect in this exact case the answer might be easier. It's because fake has an ambiguous meaning. It includes everything from the gamut of completely absurd such as elections aren't even actually happening, to the improbable but possible such as elections being rigged, to the self evident such as the people being elected, and their subsequent actions taken, being completely unrepresentative of the people or their…

Maybe. Let's say an election actually was rigged - do you think that is more important than whether our "democracy" is legitimate, always ? Do you think 10% of the HN user base has the ability to discuss this question, at all, and without losing control?

The problem is that society has been exceptionally divided, again owing to fear politics. And so even if an election was rigged, the people that benefited from it would basically demand a level of evidence that would never exist, even in cases of rigging. And by contrast, those that suffered from it would take the slightest irregularity as undeniable evidence of their rightness. And so it's quite unlikely that either side could ever reach a burden of proof that the other side would be happy with.

I think an important point in general is that democracy is what people think it is. If people think elections are fair or a viable means to change their political fate, then they're going to act accordingly, and vice versa if they don't. So personally I think having as absurdly transparent and open a system is critical. Irregularities and oddities should be publicly emphasized across the aisle so (1) everybody can discuss things and be on the same page, and (2) they can be remedied and not repeated.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#648

Post by multiplegeorges »

Klonoar wrote: post #365
multiplegeorges wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compromise a single phone in a target group, send a message to an anonymous chat, and you now know every other member of the group. Apple needs to know your Apple ID to send you an APNS payload. Now your anonymous chat profile is tied to your real Apple ID. Busted.

This is not necessarily true. You’re assuming that all the info is in push notifications themselves. E.g: if I get a push notification that is simply “you have a new event, poll the server”, and then I poll the server for (encrypted) batch updates, where exactly do you see the leak that ties an anonymous profile to an Apple ID? Given a large enough service, that same generic batch update endpoint would be getting ham…

Very delayed reply here, but it's a timing attack, I think.

If the government has access to telco resources (I think it's safe to assume that they can and do), then they can line up the timing of a chat message with the push notifications it triggers.

If we are chatting and the government doesn't know who I am, it will only be a matter of time before the number and timing of the push notifications I receive line up in a unique way to the messages you sent me. That would work for every member of the group.

Apple could bundle up multiple push notifications to obfuscate it a bit, but it would hurt real-time communications and wouldn't be that strong of a mitigation anyway.

Re: Governments spying on Apple, Google users through push notifications

#649

Post by mistermann »

somenameforme wrote: post #647
mistermann wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Let's say an election actually was rigged - do you think that is more important than whether our "democracy" is legitimate, always ? Do you think 10% of the HN user base has the ability to discuss this question, at all, and without losing control?

The problem is that society has been exceptionally divided, again owing to fear politics. And so even if an election was rigged, the people that benefited from it would basically demand a level of evidence that would never exist, even in cases of rigging. And by contrast, those that suffered from it would take the slightest irregularity as undeniable evidence of their rightness. And so it's quite unlikely that either…

> I think an important point in general is that democracy is what people think it is.

I think you hit the nail on the head here - and, it doesn't apply only to democracy, it applies to everything. It's funny, because lots of people also know this, yet do nothing about it.

> If people think elections are fair or a viable means to change their political fate, then they're going to act accordingly, and vice versa if they don't.

Where "acting accordingly" is usually ~behaving on social media in the corresponding manner.

Gosh, I wonder why it seems like humanity has little control over its fate.

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